2017 CS Lombardia Trophy Mens LP

[MaiKatze]

Oh, did they not get medals? I don't think I've ever seen a podium where they displayed plaques.

Doesn't seem so, but maybe there is something in the plaque cases? they are holding? A coin or something.

 

[Tavi...]

What I'm about to say isn't a very popular way on this forum to look at skaters' performances. But here goes anyway. You may have noticed in the first part of my post that I said I'd just woken up. Brendan's skate, then Jason's, were the only two I'd seen.

Because of that, I responded out of intuitive places that are strongest when we first come out of dreaming. I think this is extremely relevant to those of us who love figure skating, because general audiences don't analyze skating point by point. They know great skating when they see it, and I'm not talking about counting the number of rotations. The quads and difficult jumps/combos do add huge value to what audiences feel, because they're thrilling, and because the skaters themselves show their exultation when they pull such elements off well, and because they convey the feeling of flying.

Figure skating has always relied on such unconscious, intuitive qualities for its popularity with the general public. It's unique because it conveys emotion from performer to audience member. Through jumps, and much more through musically adept movements and all the other more subtle aspects of skating. Audiences want to feel something.

Having said that, if I watch both skates again, I suspect I'll see exactly what you mean and the analytical part of me might even agree with you.

I mean, maybe you'll feel different but maybe not. Maybe you'll feel exactly the same way on rewatching it: maybe you just like Brendan - or this skate of his - better. There's nothing wrong with that - I just happen not to feel the same way. If I recall, it was watching Jason at TEB that brought you back to figure skating. But my sense is that there are now several other skaters you like as well or better. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[MaiKatze]

Brown can't do quads and doesn't need quads he just needs to wait. The system is being reformed for him so he can win all the events.

Are you serious? They will reform the entire system so that Jason Brown will win all events? Please use the sarcasm emoji, if that's what you're saying. I cannot see that, how quick is that going to happen? He's not in juniors anymore. His career does have an expiry date. The US fed won't fight for it either as they have enough skaters who have quads by now. And the other feds? Won't they fight against this? Now I'm confused.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Congratulations to Shoma!!! Absolutely killed it!!!

I look forward to going back through this thread and perusing the inevitable meltdowns from his critics/haters/those who want to see him lose to their faves... they must be so unbelievably SHOOK by these performances so early in the season. Yassss... keep slaying Shoma.

And the thing is, his PCS wasn't even that high! Get that loop down pat, maybe throw in a quad lutz (meh who cares if it's a flutz - you'll still score higher than the 3S). And you're looking at a great shot at the OGM.

 

[Mrs. P]

Are you serious? They will reform the entire system so that Jason Brown will win all events? Please use the sarcasm emoji, if that's what you're saying. I cannot see that, how quick is that going to happen? He's not in juniors anymore. His career does have an expiry date. The US fed won't fight for it either as they have enough skaters who have quads by now. And the other feds? Won't they fight against this? Now I'm confused.

Jason is all that is wrong with IJS is the point, and that is the point being made. Basically how dare Jason manage to go to the Olympics, win GP/senior b/national medals and get top 10 world placements without a quad! :sarcasm:

In all seriousness, I think Jason just does what he's always does -- he makes the most of what he has and just goes with it. People mistake that as a lack of ambition, but I don't think he would have gotten as far as he has in spite of his technical handicaps if he was not driven.

 

[karne]

bravo to brendan kerry for a podium finish as well : is it his first international podium?

No, he won Gardena in 2016.

 

[NoNameFace]

Jason is all that is wrong with IJS is the point, and that is the point being made. Basically how dare Jason manage to go to the Olympics, win GP/senior b/national medals and get top 10 world placements without a quad! :sarcasm:

In all seriousness, I think Jason just does what he's always does -- he makes the most of what he has and just goes with it. People mistake that as a lack of ambition, but I don't think he would have gotten as far as he has in spite of his technical handicaps if he was not driven.

well then - if it's Jason's supposed 'lack of ambition', it is sourced from laziness, ignorance and 'lack of broader perspective' of those who are saying such things

will re-watch tomorrow and post my thought (late as always)

 

[skylark]

I mean, maybe you'll feel different but maybe not. Maybe you'll feel exactly the same way on rewatching it: maybe you just like Brendan - or this skate of his - better. There's nothing wrong with that - I just happen not to feel the same way. If I recall, it was watching Jason at TEB that brought you back to figure skating. But my sense is that there are now several other skaters you like as well or better. Nothing wrong with that.

Nice of you to remember that it was Jason who brought me back to figure skating. It was at Skate America that year (2013). That was also the event that started my love feast with Ashley, but it was a slower start.

I still love Jason passionately; in fact, when he did his Hamilton program the other day, it reminded me again why I love him so much. He just draws me in; it's like I'm with him on the ice. Same with Ashley, actually. I need to remind myself that this is Jason's usual process, that's all. His more lyrical programs take more time for me to appreciate them, but it does happen.

I guess I have a lot of favorites. Not at all monogamous, with skaters. ) I really enjoy watching the competitions this time of year, because I enjoy seeing more of a variety of styles. At least it seems that way to me, with more of the skaters not aiming so pointedly at one thing.

 

[Leonardo]

I think there's an important point here.

No skater should be immune from criticism, not even popular crowd favorites. This is a discussion forum, after all. Offering criticism is not being a "hater" or "disser."

But none of us seem to be uninformed about the sport in general, and critical posts that include evidence or analysis carry more weight.

PS. The one exception I make, and most seem to agree, is that I consider it ill-mannered and unwelcome to criticize a skater on his/her FanFest thread. In fact, I used to avoid FanFests because of the one-sided discussion, but lately I've found it enjoyable to check for news on my favorites, and to chime in when I have something to offer.

There's no problem with criticism. The problem is the when always the same posters find every opportunity to do the same criticism to the same skater in every possible thread in every possible time (in or off season, in or out of competition threads) in every possible way in a dismissive manner. And that is clearly the problem of some posters here. Obssessive criticis of a given skater, chronical dissers or simply haters, you name it. Thing is, haters hate to be called haters, because it makes them look biased and dismissive when they pretend to be impartial and constructive so they can hate long and often. There was a poster with only 57 posts in this forum, and 56 of them were "critical" of Mao Asada. That's not normal, it's completely repetitive, unnecessary, obssessive, negative and not constructive in any way.

 

[Blades of Passion]

So here is Shoma Uno's FS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZFMPosj2BI

Ignore everything and look at his feet. Two foot skating dominates.

Human beings have two feet. I love two foot skating! Just don't do it on your jumps.

Shoma's program is not as good as it was two seasons ago, though, thanks to the incessant focus on quads breaking down the choreography. Another reused program that is worse. This season seriously sucks.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Ignore everything and look at his feet. Two foot skating dominates. So which part is a "diss" then and what is actually a genuine issue he has? Especially considering that he is a top tier skater, and according to his fans, a major candidate for OGM. This is a legitimate critique of his skating, particularly relevant to someone who is aiming so high because that should represent the elite of the elite.

It's a shame he didn't attempt a lutz. Otherwise you'd have something else to criticize him for. Although just to troll his critics he should totally throw in a quad lutz/flutz just for the extra points.

 

[TontoK]

There's no problem with criticism. The problem is the when always the same posters find every opportunity to do the same criticism to the same skater in every possible thread in every possible time (in or off season, in or out of competition threads) in every possible way in a dismissive manner. And that is clearly the problem of some posters here. Obssessive criticis of a given skater, chronical dissers or simply haters, you name it. Thing is, haters hate to be called haters, because it makes them look biased and dismissive when they pretend to be impartial and constructive so they can hate long and often. There was a poster with only 57 posts in this forum, and 56 of them were "critical" of Mao Asada. That's not normal, it's completely repetitive, unnecessary, obssessive, negative and not constructive in any way.

I agree there is a difference between offering critical commentary and just being a jackass.

I do not agree that making a critical point, in and of itself, makes one a hater.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Ah that score for Shoma. At this point I am sorry they didn't give him the WR!

I want to see the world burn. Congrats ISU, congrats and please continue making other skaters look like fools. At this point, it's simply hilariously awful but still hilarious.

I'm surprised there isn't a flip-loop/Flipberger comment thrown in there.

I find nothing impressive about cheated quads, uncalled URs, two footed skating, an empty program with so few transitions and one note expression

<-- Evidently, the popcorn smilie is no longer the saltiest thing on this forum.

You can crow all you want about URs or cheated quads, but that's insignificant when the protocols come out. Sorry 'bout it, but Shoma's a legit OGM contender, and as much as certain people are desperate to see his scores reduced so their faves have a better chance to win, that ain't happening.

 

[TontoK]

I admit I looked hard at those 4F's.

Either the technique has improved greatly over the off-season, or the camera angles shielded the problem.

Because to my casual eye, they looked better.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I admit I looked hard at those 4F's.

Either the technique has improved greatly over the off-season, or the camera angles shielded the problem.

Because to my casual eye, they looked better.

Agreed. There is still some pre-rotation, but his 4F is taking off the pick moreso than the flat of his blade, and the overall jump looks more stable. Certainly the judges and technical specialist seem to think so.

And seems that the conversation critiquing his 4F technique has moved on to two-footed skating. So clearly, he's doing something better , if even his most staunch critics have decided to find something else to pick on. Although it's what we all predicted -- if Shoma improves or removes his lutz, or better his technique, they'd just rant about something else.

I wouldn't be surprised if this two-skating narrative becomes central in the ongoing efforts to condemn Uno's skating and dismiss him as an OGM worthy candidate.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Sure he is. While Yuzuru Hanyu was hospitalized with the flu. We really do ought to mention that, considering that when they did go one against the other, in the GPF and Worlds, it was Hanyu who came out on top.

That doesn't change the fact that Uno is still the reigning Japanese champion. Nor does it mean that Hanyu would have necessarily defeated him, even if he had been healthy.

Also, in case you missed it, in their most recent head-to-head, Uno came out on top - by over 18 points.

Anyways, hopefully both skaters will remain healthy and we get many a head-to-head, so that nobody has to trivialize either skaters' victories/achievements by pulling the whole "Uno won only because Hanyu wasn't there/Hanyu won only because Uno wasn't there" card.

 

[asiacheetah]

Human beings have two feet. I love two foot skating! Just don't do it on your jumps.

Shoma's program is not as good as it was two seasons ago, though, thanks to the incessant focus on quads breaking down the choreography. Another reused program that is worse. This season seriously sucks.

I haven't seen most of the programs from this year. Which other recycled program do you think was done worse out of curiosity?

 

[asiacheetah]

Also, in case you missed it, in their most recent head-to-head, Uno came out on top - by over 18 points.

Anyways, hopefully both skaters will remain healthy and we get many a head-to-head, so that nobody has to trivialize either skaters' victories/achievements by pulling the whole "Uno won only because Hanyu wasn't there/Hanyu won only because Uno wasn't there" card.

I don't know. WTT is set up so differently that it might have very well impacted a skater's mentality and approach. Each segment was reset and no total score was awarded for that. Shoma definitely beat Yuzuru in the SP and Yuzuru beat the Men field in the LP. I don't know if it's a individual game whether it might have affected the results. I always thought Shoma was a bit intimated when going head-to-head against Yuzuru last season since he looked up to him. Last season was a major morale booster for Shoma and prove that he can compete on the same field as Yuzu and that's a huge mental challenge heading into Olympic season. I look forward to seeing their showdowns this season.

 

[Neenah16]

I think we can all agree that the judges were very generous at Lombardia for all disciplines. Hopefully, other competitions will be more moderate in their scoring.

Nevertheless, congratulations to the medalists, they were all great and I am looking forward to seeing how their programs will grow . Special mention to Brendan and Deniss who I've watched for the first time and really loved :luv17:

I don't really understand how people can throw a word like hate around so easily and on something as inconsequential as criticizing someones score. If you have ever experienced true hate you would never use it like that

 

[Li'Kitsu]

Agreed. There is still some pre-rotation, but his 4F is taking off the pick moreso than the flat of his blade, and the overall jump looks more stable. Certainly the judges and technical specialist seem to think so.

And seems that the conversation critiquing his 4F technique has moved on to two-footed skating. So clearly, he's doing something better , if even his most staunch critics have decided to find something else to pick on. Although it's what we all predicted -- if Shoma improves or removes his lutz, or better his technique, they'd just rant about something else.

I wouldn't be surprised if this two-skating narrative becomes central in the ongoing efforts to condemn Uno's skating and dismiss him as an OGM worthy candidate.

Shoma has always been criticized for his amount of two-foot skating. It is simply put easier, in general, to skate for large parts on 2 feet then incorporating a lot of moves/larger portions of choreo on only one foot. It's more difficult skating-wise, it's more draining stamina-wise - it should be a no brainer. So what is wrong with people wanting someone who has a significant amount of one foot skating to be awarded over those who don't?
(Also, Shomas staunchest critiques aren't here. If what has been in this thread bugs you, better don't go looking through the evil internet)

I don't know. WTT is set up so differently that it might have very well impacted a skater's mentality and approach. Each segment was reset and no total score was awarded for that. Shoma definitely beat Yuzuru in the SP and Yuzuru beat the Men field in the LP. I don't know if it's a individual game whether it might have affected the results. I always thought Shoma was a bit intimated when going head-to-head against Yuzuru last season since he looked up to him. Last season was a major morale booster for Shoma and prove that he can compete on the same field as Yuzu and that's a huge mental challenge heading into Olympic season. I look forward to seeing their showdowns this season.

It's more that it's a team event, and therefor the individual results aren't rewarded as much - but Shoma still beat Yuzu overall (and I'd think there is a thing at the banquet where they are getting certificates or something for their individual placements). So Yuzu - Shoma from last season is a 3 -1 (GPF/4CC/WC - WTT).

As for Japanese Nationals - Shomas winning score was lower then any of the winning scores Yuzu ever had, even back in 2012, when the scores overall were still a lot tamer for everyone. Of course that still doesn't mean he'd have definitely won - but while I think less that Yuzu wouldn't have beaten Shomas 280+, who knows if Shoma had not skated better had Yuzu been there. He seems to be very focused on beating Yuzu above all, and I'd think suddenly being the favorite going in must have been very big pressure on his shoulders. It's not unlikely he would have skated better with Yuzu there, IMO.