2016 Europeans Men Free Skate

[solani]

+ haha saw on another forum
Onlooker's perspective on Florozov!:luv17:
Nikolay Morozov during best ever performance of Florant Amodio Bratislava European Championship 2016

It's really touching to see how much he cares. And hilarious.

 

[da96103]

I agree - he gambles on more, then the margin of potential mistakes widens to stay in contention especially when others do not have equal goods to offer/have them, but can't perform.

His performance yesterday was really sublime and entertaining (aside of 4T slip), overall I consider his SP/FS season set as a best from him yet - both programs are bringing his best qualities, athleticism and showman's flare to their best. And the moment between 4S and step sequence with checking watch - just magnificent! What amazes me even more is what you've pointed above - he seems not very affected by Hanyu's records/actions, I sense he's more relaxed and engaged in his performances with upped tech contents in BOTH programs. A big big kudos for Brian - he's really an amazing coach and the way he's dealing with two top guys now is really a thing to admire - both are constantly developing, are still competition and success hungry.

I think Javi and Yuzu are really having a sibling kind of relationship. If you have a good relationship with your brother/sister, you would be proud with his/her success rather than be jealous and resentful. Unlike *cough *cough....

 

[Sugarpova]

lol OK edited:thumbsup:

 

[Pamigena]

don't even start I'm begging you

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Congrats to Javi on an awesome win! Definitely the class of the field technically and artistically. Also congrats to Alexei for Israel's medal. I would have liked to see Florentine beat Kovtun for a final bronze send off but at least he had a good free skate to say goodbye.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Also, the people defending the 9.75 and 10's for Javi's skate - which was not clean (including a fall) - just... no.

That is obviously awful judging.

 

[Hanmgse]

don't even start I'm begging you

 

[machin]

Florentine ?

Sound like Chocolatine which is croissant + chocolate.

 

[Sugarpova]

I would have liked to see Florentine beat Kovtun for a final bronze send off but at least he had a good free skate to say goodbye.

Im gonna call him from now on!:agree:

 

[LadyB]

I think Javi and Yuzu are really having a sibling kind of relationship. If you have a good relationship with your brother/sister, you would be proud with his/her success rather than be jealous and resentful. Unlike *cough *cough....

Yeah, the best skaters in the world, the fiercest rivals, but they talk about each other as 'brother'. Watch them at the last Worlds medal ceremony! It's absolutely amazing what Brian Orser has created there. Hope they're both top level in Boston. Can't wait! Go boys!

 

[jeff goldblum]

I'm not saying Hanyu's ballade isn't a masterpiece (it is, or rather was last season when the jumps were more musically placed). Nevertheless, it does not have as much choreographic content, mostly because of the slowness of the music and the choreography matching that.

I don't want to put words into anyone's mouth, but I think people often misinterpret or have incorrect assumptions about what choreography means. I am by no means an expert on the judging system and am not trying to convey the technical definition of the particular PC, but, to me, choreography includes the jumps (clearly it must to you to a degree because of your suggestion Hanyu's were previously more "musically placed"), spins, and really everything in the program. It is my experience that to many people, the more a skater's arms are moving around the more or even better choreography they must have. Just because a piece of music has one instrument versus many, does not mean that the choreography for the former should have less "content" than the latter. Feet, legs, torso, head, eyes, hands, etc all play roles and their movement or even lack of movement, if understood correctly can be used to create an incredibly layered choreographic work. I think there is actually a lot going on in Hanyu's program choreographically; this doesn't necessarily apply here, but less is often more.


Oh, I also agree with those saying Fernandez was overscored here, though he was obviously the deserving winner.

 

[HanDomi]

I don't want to put words into anyone's mouth, but I think people often misinterpret or have incorrect assumptions about what choreography means. I am by no means an expert on the judging system and am not trying to convey the technical definition of the particular PC, but, to me, choreography includes the jumps (clearly it must to you to a degree because of your suggestion Hanyu's were previously more "musically placed"), spins, and really everything in the program. It is my experience that to many people, the more a skater's arms are moving around the more or even better choreography they must have. Just because a piece of music has one instrument versus many, does not mean that the choreography for the former should have less "content" than the latter. Feet, legs, torso, head, eyes, hands, etc all play roles and their movement or even lack of movement, if understood correctly can be used to create an incredibly layered choreographic work. I think there is actually a lot going on in Hanyu's program choreographically; this doesn't necessarily apply here, but less is often more.


Oh, I also agree with those saying Fernandez was overscored here, though he was obviously the deserving winner.

Well here we have comparison of first half with quads Hanyu vs Fernandez up to spin after 2nd quad.

https://youtu.be/5fs5g3C1h1I?t=55
Vs
https://youtu.be/h9wOjXP9TYg?t=25

Fernandez is doing more things with just arms, while Hanyu is using his whole body starting from feet.

 

[Violet Bliss]

I find Javi's movements in his program relatively simple and quite a bit easier than Patrick's and Yuzuru's. Music interpretation is often expressed with arm and hand gestures to sync with the obvious beats and highlights of the music, often while standing still or doing slow and simple skating, dramatic but easy to time and perform. This is often the way programs are choreographed for lesser skaters, but the best move with their feet and whole bodies to the nuanced music, which may be more subtle, and sometimes landing big jumps at exclamation marks of the music, which is truly dramatic but much harder to achieve, with risk of anti-climatic effect.

Javi is a great performer, a portrayer of iconic characters, but taking into consideration the easier interpretation of music and simpler skating, I feel his PCS are generally over-scored in comparison to the very few with skating skills superior to his.

 

[Violet Bliss]

+ haha saw on another forum
Onlooker's perspective on Florozov!:luv17:
Nikolay Morozov during best ever performance of Florant Amodio Bratislava European Championship 2016

Obviously someone was much more interested in his performance than Amodio's.

 

[Farnaz]

I wish Javi's fans wouldn't have gotten upset by other users suspecting Javi's score and discussing it. I mean there are not that many figure skating fans around us and most of time we don't have a person to share our ideas and opinions with after watching a competition. This forum gives us the wonderful opportunity to talk about the sport we love and the skaters we root for. So, please, don't ask other users to stop expressing their opinions just because theirs are different from yours, please .

Personally, I agree that Javier was overscored but like most of other people with the same opinion, I believe that Javi is a talented skater, unique performer and great person. The point is Javi is great enough based on his own effort. He doesn't need to be supported by judges or ISU to achieve what he can by himself.

 

[Tavi...]

This is one of the quintessential problems with figure skating fans. The numbers don't mean anything in a vacuum. They are only meant to assess that skater in that segment at that specific competition. The ISU, to that end, takes care to explicitly mention that they DON'T do "world record" scores, but only record the progression of "high scores." They have to be aware that scores across comps are variable and not comparable. Your disappointment stems from not recognizing that fact and attributing an artificial significance to "barriers" like 300+ total score as well as not realizing that, in this sport, falls and stumbles are not heavily penalized and remove no more than 2-5 points from someone's score. That is why Hanyu can fall twice and still win Olympic gold but loses the world title by popping a quad salchow.

To illustrate my point about how scores are not necessarily comparable, look at the difference between how Yuna Kim was scored at 2013 Worlds in the SP AND the FS. Both performances were of extremely similar quality, but take a look at the protocol for her PCS and you'll see what I mean.

Similarly, PCS trends have changed and judges are no longer reluctant to award 9.0+. You can't demand that Javi get a 7 in interpretation when Yuzuru is now being awarded tens just for skating cleanly.

In short, scores don't exist in a vacuum and aren't comparable across competitions. Believing otherwise leads to weird rants about overinflation and "homecooking" and conspiracies, etc.

And do you have any proof for your theory that scores are not meant to be as consistent and comparable between competitions as possible? Because the ISU clearly states otherwise here:

http://www.isu.org/en/single-and-pair-skating-and-ice-dance/isu-judging-system/introduction

Note the following:

Under the ISU Judging System the Judges focus entirely on evaluating the quality of each element performed (Technical aspect) and the quality of the performance.

Their scores will be based on specific quality criteria for each element and will provide a comprehensive assessment of each skater’s skills and performance, without comparing each skater in relation to all others.

With specific respect to GOE, they state:

These element Base Values and Levels of Difficulty ensure that skaters receive the appropriate and consistent credit for every element performed. The Base Value of all recognized elements are reviewed and published annually by the ISU in a Communication.

With respect to PCS, a score of 7-8 is given if the skater achieves approximately 75% of certain published criteria; a score of 9 to 10 indicates an outstanding performance relative to the published criteria -eg, it ostensibly fulfills 90 to 100% of the ctiteria:

http://www.isu.org/en/single-and-pair-skating-and-ice-dance/isu-judging-system/introduction

Note also that according to the ISU's own published explanation of the advantages of IJS over 6.0, scores are not supposed to reflect relative ranking, skaters early in the start order should not be disadvantaged, and IJS is not supposed to result in a jumping contest:

http://www.isu.org/en/single-and-pair-skating-and-ice-dance/isu-judging-system/introduction

Obviously judges are human so minor variation in scores between competitions can be expected. The real problem is that the judges don't adhere to the stated criteria, awarding bonus points for reputation, skating order, number of quads performed, etc.

 

[melmel]

I wish Javi's fans wouldn't have gotten upset by other users suspecting Javi's score and discussing it. I mean there are not that many figure skating fans around us and most of time we don't have a person to share our ideas and opinions with after watching a competition. This forum gives us the wonderful opportunity to talk about the sport we love and the skaters we root for. So, please, don't ask other users to stop expressing their opinions just because theirs are different from yours, please .

Personally, I agree that Javier was overscored but like most of other people with the same opinion, I believe that Javi is a talented skater, unique performer and great person. The point is Javi is great enough based on his own effort. He doesn't need to be supported by judges or ISU to achieve what he can by himself.

There's a difference between discussin his score with arguments that take in consideration the ISU rules and going "Fernandez sucks, he's a slop, if he gets those scores it's because of whatever favoritism and nothing is deserved!!!" which I actually saw a lot since his win.

To me all of this is very unfair to him. You (geneal you) may not like his choreography but if you have a little honesty you can't say he doesn't deserve his score, even with taking out a bit of the inflation. Javier is with Yuzuru one of the guys who put the most transitions in and out of his jumps, if you focus on his feet during his programs he doesn't have Patrick's edges but he's fast, bouncy, and needs very few crossovers. His spins aren't fast but they don't travel. His position in the air during his jump is beautiful. He doesn't break choreography or character even after a mistake. It is extremely obvious he's training in the same environment as Yuzuru so it bewilds me that people spit on him like that and trash him down like he was the worst skater ever.

I'm not moved by Patrick Chan's skating AT ALL, but I have the honesty to recognize the good things in his skating. As well as I'm an uber fan of Yuzuru but I have the honesty to recognize where he needs to work on stuff. It would seriously be basic decency to give this respect to Fernandez as well.

Hell, even after a bit of a cooling down, I had to admit that with the COP it's not totally surprising that Kovtun beat Amodio (who had quite a "broken pausing" in his FS where he did nothing so that completely unlinked his program), plus he did a better SP. And let me tell you I would have love for Amodio to get his fairytale/swan song bronze medal soooo much.

 

[Farnaz]

There's a difference between discussin his score with arguments that take in consideration the ISU rules and going "Fernandez sucks, he's a slop, if he gets those scores it's because of whatever favoritism and nothing is deserved!!!" which I actually saw a lot since his win.

To me all of this is very unfair to him. You (geneal you) may not like his choreography but if you have a little honesty you can't say he doesn't deserve his score, even with taking out a bit of the inflation. Javier is with Yuzuru one of the guys who put the most transitions in and out of his jumps, if you focus on his feet during his programs he doesn't have Patrick's edges but he's fast, bouncy, and needs very few crossovers. His spins aren't fast but they don't travel. His position in the air during his jump is beautiful. He doesn't break choreography or character even after a mistake. It is extremely obvious he's training in the same environment as Yuzuru so it bewilds me that people spit on him like that and trash him down like he was the worst skater ever.

I'm not moved by Patrick Chan's skating AT ALL, but I have the honesty to recognize the good things in his skating. As well as I'm an uber fan of Yuzuru but I have the honesty to recognize where he needs to work on stuff. It would seriously be basic decency to give this respect to Fernandez as well.

Hell, even after a bit of a cooling down, I had to admit that with the COP it's not totally surprising that Kovtun beat Amodio (who had quite a "broken pausing" in his FS where he did nothing so that completely unlinked his program), plus he did a better SP. And let me tell you I would have love for Amodio to get his fairytale/swan song bronze medal soooo much.

I always try to be polite in my posts and not insult anyone. I don't know which user you are quoting my friend but I personally used as many good adjectives as possible to show I like Javier and respect him. Surely, some users used inappropriate wording in their comments but I really believe that this particular discussion was one of the rare cases that users tried to keep their cool and not attack each other. Just go and check the Chan vs. Hanyu thread or Chan voices his opinion ... So, I was thrilled to see a more polite and friendly discussion here. It is not perfect but much better than before and I really thank my friends in this forum for that.

P.S. Just to make clear that I also have a very little amount of honesty, I declare that I'm not a Patrick fan and don't intend to attack Javier for his sake. The users that know me also know that I'm a crazy Yuzu fan but I recognize Patrick's greatness in his skating.

 

[melmel]

I always try to be polite in my posts and not insult anyone. I don't know which user you are quoting my friend but I personally used as many good adjectives as possible to show I like Javier and respect him. Surely, some users used inappropriate wording in their comments but I really believe that this particular discussion was one of the rare cases that users tried to keep their cool and not attack each other. Just go and check the Chan vs. Hanyu thread or Chan voices his opinion ... So, I was thrilled to see a more polite and friendly discussion here. It is not perfect but much better than before and I really thank my friends in this forum for that.

P.S. Just to make clear that I also have a very little amount of honesty, I declare that I'm not a Patrick fan and don't intend to attack Javier for his sake. The users that know me also know that I'm a crazy Yuzu fan but I recognize Patrick's greatness in his skating.

Don't worry that wasn't targeted at you in particular, and I'm not questioning your intention I took your words at face value that you like Javier in your post, but I quoted you since you expressed sadness about Javier's fans "overreacting". Unlike you though, I didn't find the discussion (and not just here, but on other threads) particularly "friendly". And I agree that some thread, especially Chan vs Hanyu can derail much more but still. I find very disheartening that all that is said about Javi is so negative and quite unfair. Users may not have attacked eachother personnally, but that doesn't mean some didn't "attack" Javi.

I'm sorry if I made you feel attacked, I was expressing the frustration I felt in the last days when I thought people would be celebrating but instead I kept seeing nagging against Javi. None of it was directed at you. :giveup:

 

[Farnaz]

Don't worry that wasn't targeted at you in particular, and I'm not questioning your intention I took your words at face value that you like Javier in your post, but I quoted you since you expressed sadness about Javier's fans "overreacting". Unlike you though, I didn't find the discussion (and not just here, but on other threads) particularly "friendly". And I agree that some thread, especially Chan vs Hanyu can derail much more but still. I find very disheartening that all that is said about Javi is so negative and quite unfair. Users may not have attacked eachother personnally, but that doesn't mean some didn't "attack" Javi.

I'm sorry if I made you feel attacked, I was expressing the frustration I felt in the last days when I thought people would be celebrating but instead I kept seeing nagging against Javi. None of it was directed at you. :giveup:

:cool2: