Sorry, my bad. I'm not sure which poster said that the doubled jump affected the PCS, and it would take watching Machida's two programs side-by-side to see the difference. I'd have to go back and look at his Sochi short, but there are a lot of factors that can affect a PCS, even for the same skater in the same season (like getting the extra energy from a home crowd.)
2014 Worlds Men Short Program
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Sorry, my bad. I'm not sure which poster said that the doubled jump affected the PCS, and it would take watching Machida's two programs side-by-side to see the difference. I'd have to go back and look at his Sochi short, but there are a lot of factors that can affect a PCS, even for the same skater in the same season (like getting the extra energy from a home crowd.)
I personally have absolute no problem with fluctuating PCS from one competition to another. BUT I also remember the uproar in Sochi when the main argument against some skaters was "How on Earth PCS can change so quickly". That's all.
Again, I think the thing to keep in mind is that expression is subjective. And this applies to anyone who may come up in arms at ramurphy2005. Some might love someone's interpretation, while some others not so much.
I understand where you're coming from when you say his program didn't meet your expectations especially in comparison to Kwan's. I tried NOT to think of Michelle's program. To look at this in its own light, and try to feel at what Machida was trying to get at. I loved how much he was engaged in the music, and the dramatic swells of the piece itself didn't do any harm either.
I think the poster in question is yours truly.
However I never said that Machida's PCS was lower because he doubled a jump. I said that he was not clean. And when I said clean, I mean an strong performance with all elements done and performed to his fullest potential. Stella, you have the correct interpretation.
A case could be made that he should have maybe a point or so lower. At Skate America, which was probably his best performance of the season until this competition, he scored 41.10. He scored 40.40 at Rostelecom Cup with a huge error in his 4T-3T.
Another thing to consider is that PCS tends to rise as the season goes on. Jason Brown had clean short programs all seasons long with no errors: Here is his PCS: 36.03 (Nebelhorn in September), 38.93, 38.79, 40.61 (Olympics in February). So within five months, his PCS went up by 4 points. Machida's PCS from Skate America in October(with a clean program) to Worlds in March (five months) also went up 4 points.
The issue some took with Adelina's rising PCS is that it was a much steeper rate than the typical progression you see throughout the season. At GPF, she had 30.85 by the Olympics just two months later, she was at 35+.
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I think that program component scoring is a complex thing to quantify and it would be helpful if it were better explained to the public, although the level of detail that the judges need to be watching for escapes pretty much most average viewers. Maybe that is the "disconnect" which, if bridged a bit, would help more people understand how someone could, for instance, place higher than someone else in spite of a fall, or how PCS can vary between competitions, and lessen the "corrupt judging/home favoritism" talk.
I found this is a helpful reference to refer to. Going to try to keep an eye out for these things more this week:
http://www.usfigureskating.org/New_Judging.asp?id=289
I found this is a helpful reference to refer to. Going to try to keep an eye out for these things more this week:
http://www.usfigureskating.org/New_Judging.asp?id=289
I totally agree - and a rising PCS throughout the season makes sense as a skater becomes more comfortable with performing their program in competition..
how is that steeper?
Machida from 40.14 GPF to 45.19 Worlds
Sotnikova from 30.85 GPF to 35.55 Olympics
Apples and oranges. Machida basically had a meltdown at GPF, that 40.14 is WORSE than what he got at Skate America earlier in the season 41+. Skate America was his best performance of the season.
Sotnikova on the other hand had a similar level of performance at the GPF and at the Olympics in the short program. Likewise I wouldn't compare her FS from GPF to the Olympics for the same reason I wouldn't use GPF as a bench mark for Machida -- Sotnikova basically had a meltdown in the FS.
As I said, a case could be made that Machida's score might have been slightly inflated, but so was Hanyu's, especially considering the fall.
This, I think illustrates the problem with PCS.....so hard to analyze.
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Really? And what meltdown he had at Skate America and Rostelekom?
Machida was absolutely incredible. So much flow throughout, great use of the whole upper body, really fluid movement and strong on all of the elements. Fernandez skated ok but I thought the judges were a little generous with his GOEs and I'd have Machida even further ahead.
It's nice to see that at least two out of the nine judges could add up and between the lack of preceding footwork, the under-rotation and the two-footed landing, gave Kozuka -3 for the 4toe. :sarcasm:
Cieplucha finally broke the curse of two 25th places in a row and made the FS. HELL YEAH! It didn't look likely so it made for very tense viewing but then who could predict so many skaters imploding.
So after getting held up and undeservedly - IMO - making the FS, Brezina withdrew anyway. Godorozha should have made the FS.
I think Machida has been low-balled in the past, in comparison to other skaters and IIRC, I had him 3rd overall in Sochi.
I know that a lot of people mentioned it and I remember infographics showing Sotnikova's PCS rise but that's not really an argument, though. You give PCS for a specific performance and not for what happened in the past.
It's nice to see that at least two out of the nine judges could add up and between the lack of preceding footwork, the under-rotation and the two-footed landing, gave Kozuka -3 for the 4toe. :sarcasm:
Cieplucha finally broke the curse of two 25th places in a row and made the FS. HELL YEAH! It didn't look likely so it made for very tense viewing but then who could predict so many skaters imploding.
So after getting held up and undeservedly - IMO - making the FS, Brezina withdrew anyway. Godorozha should have made the FS.
I think Machida has been low-balled in the past, in comparison to other skaters and IIRC, I had him 3rd overall in Sochi.
I know that a lot of people mentioned it and I remember infographics showing Sotnikova's PCS rise but that's not really an argument, though. You give PCS for a specific performance and not for what happened in the past.
AGAIN, at Skate America, his PCS was 41.10 from September. He scored 40.40 at Rostelecom Cup with a huge error in his 4T-3T. He got 45.39 at Worlds, a difference of 4.29 points over five months. I used Jason Brown as an example because he skated four clean short programs and only one of them was on "home turf." The difference from his PCS in Nebelhorn in September to his Olympic SP in February was 4.58 points, also over five months. But when you look at the difference between Nebelhorn in September (36.03) to Trophee Eric Bompard in November, the difference in PCS is 2.76 points.
In the same period of time (two months) for two solid programs--- Adelina's PCS increased by 4.7 points. That's what I'm referring to when I'm talking about "steeper" increase.
For the record, I'm just talking in strict numbers in terms of why Adelina's PCS rise may have been more blantant to some vs. Machida (though I guess it's blatant to some....oh well)
Hence the whole "you can't compare between competitions" thing. But I guess that's the problem with PCS...is there no way to compare performances and there's no way to properly assess progress in the second mark.
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Again I am not arguing with you about the legitimacy of PCS increase. I am saying that it is unfair to single out Adelina when the trend applies to everyone. And I do not understand why you decided to pick on two month rise for Adelina when her PCS were raising steadily throughout the season from 30-31 at GP circuit to 33 at Euros and 35 at Olys. So how is it anymore steeper than others is beyond me.
Wow, Machida. He's officially in clean Hanyu/Chan territory. And Javier is close!
I had a feeling Hanyu was going to struggle here, and he did. That's a shame, because I'd consider him my favourite atm. He can easily make up that difference with his LP, though.
Absolutely terrible showing from the Canadians. I'm not going to fault Nam much since this is his first Worlds, but Kevin... so fed up.
I had a feeling Hanyu was going to struggle here, and he did. That's a shame, because I'd consider him my favourite atm. He can easily make up that difference with his LP, though.
Absolutely terrible showing from the Canadians. I'm not going to fault Nam much since this is his first Worlds, but Kevin... so fed up.
Interesting observations. Maybe his program designs/music also contribute to the feeling of lack of flow.
Yes, that's also part of the reason I wasn't really into it! Kwan kept popping into my head lol.
Add Julia L. into the mix then too if you're so concerned about Adelina being "singled out".
Yes you can keep your eyes rolling. Just make sure you won't pop them out. Thanks for useless contribution.
Eh, I give up. I had written up a response, but I'm just going to agree to disagree regarding this matter.
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His basic skating just isn't very strong.
News reports that Daisuke's withdrawal couldn't fill the arena
http://www.sponichi.co.jp/sports/news/2014/03/26/kiji/K20140326007853290.html
Japanese news media reported that the Arena wasn't full on Mens SP, only filling 16913 out of 18400 capacity of that large arena, saying that "although Hanyu has increased his female fan base after Olympics, the withdrawal of Daisuke Takahashi, known to attract most spectators, has impacted a lot on this.
http://www.sponichi.co.jp/sports/news/2014/03/26/kiji/K20140326007853290.html
Japanese news media reported that the Arena wasn't full on Mens SP, only filling 16913 out of 18400 capacity of that large arena, saying that "although Hanyu has increased his female fan base after Olympics, the withdrawal of Daisuke Takahashi, known to attract most spectators, has impacted a lot on this.
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http://www.sponichi.co.jp/sports/news/2014/03/26/kiji/K20140326007853290.html
Japanese news media reported that the Arena wasn't full on Mens SP, only filling 16913 out of 18400 capacity of that large arena, saying that "although Hanyu has increased his female fan base after Olympics, the withdrawal of Daisuke Takahashi, known to attract most spectators, has impacted a lot on this.
Well Daisuke is the king of japanese men skaters so no surprise, Yuzu is the OGM but he doesn't have daisuke's popularity yet, Daisuke has done too much for FS in Japan
Still 16913 is a great number
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