2014 Skate America FD 10/25

[WeakAnkles]

I didn't mean this, I meant how are their costumes connected to music? Madison's dress is a micture of Bond girl dress and dress for a little bit older lady coming to the ball. Evan's dress looks like training dress. How is it connected to music which is playful and really not sober (if I use the right word) and boring?

Both Igor and C/B have stated that they were simply using the music of An American in Paris to create a modern interpretation of it. That is a very different kind of number than say Voir's Funny Face dance, which essentially was a specific homage to the movie, down to costumes aping those of the main characters. I actually rather like these costumes, because they don't distract from the dance. But YMMV (as it apparently does).

 

[Shani]

Actually I find Madison Chock's dress style in this dance particularly French and full of Parisienne style. I loved simplicity of her hair and style and thought Pechalie/ Bourzat might have had some influence on that. Also interesting was her personal development. Before she was perceived as weaker partner and now she excels.

 

[bramweld]

Maybe this is a silly question, but who is supposedly the American in this tale, Bates? If so the costumes seem okay. What has happened for them is that their skating and their music match perfectly. We may quibble about a few things but this program is a winner, IMHO.

 

[blancanieves]

Madison Chock & Evan Bates:
I understand that US needs another team who will take medal at World Championships and it is visible that those chosen ones will be Madison & Evan, and US Federation’s choice is visible even at first Grand Prix (without need to see other US couples). But is it really necessary to pump marks like that for not absolutely clean skate?

Chock & Bates Components are 51.86, Skating Skills 8.64.
While overall rules changed a lot, Component‘s definitions and the height of marks didn’t change that much.
Before Virtue & Moir and Davis & White became a legends with marks others will only dream about….in 2008 and 2009 they were very young, talented people who executed difficult and clean dances (in case of V&M with very good presentation). V&M Components at 2008 and 2009 World Championships were 50.59 and 49.28, D&W Components were 44.84 and 48.83 points. Their Skating Skills in 2008 and 2009 at World Champs were – V&M 8.46 and 8.15 (Virtue was injured in 2009) and D&W 7.61 and 8.10 points.

Do you really think that already at the beginning of the season Chock & Bates are stronger technicians and stronger in presentation than Virtue & Moir and Davis & White were in 2008 and 2009? Come on.

I'm outraged too. Unfortunately, sometimes fair play is more incidental than prevalent in figure skating.

 

[Ryan O]

I don't get the judges' love for Chock & Bates. They're competent enough in getting the basic technical elements done, but as Carol Lane said on CBC, should they really have finished 11 points ahead of The Shibutanis? They don't do anything for me artistically, either, and I find their height difference a bit awkward.

Anyway, on a Canadian note, congratulations to Paradis & Ouelette for their nice skate and surprise 4th place finish. (Orford & Williams must be pretty crushed about finishing 8th, though).

 

[dorispulaski]

In one sense yes; C&B were significantly faster than all the other skaters at Skam. Meryl & Charlie finished fourth at Skam 2007; they were not faster than Tanith & Ben or Nathalie & Fabian at that time (all 3 were in the same event.)

It is fair to argue that judges overvalue speed, but it is a fact that they value it highly and always have.

 

[Mao88]

FREE DANCE - VIDEOS & RESULT - updated

1. Madison CHOCK / Evan BATES (USA) - 171.03 Free Dance & Interview, 2nd Copy, 3rd Copy, 4th Copy
2. Maia SHIBUTANI / Alex SHIBUTANI (USA) - 160.33 Free Dance, 2nd Copy, 3rd Copy, 4th Copy
3. Alexandra STEPANOVA / Ivan BUKIN (RUS) - 143.87 Free Dance, 2nd Copy, 3rd Copy, 4th Copy
4. Elisabeth PARADIS / Francois-Xavier OUELLETTE (CAN) - 137.30 Free Dance, 2nd Copy, 3rd Copy
5. Anastasia CANNUSCIO / Colin MCMANUS (USA) - 135.61 Free Dance, 2nd Copy, 3rd Copy
6. Charlene GUIGNARD / Marco FABBRI (ITA) - 135.50 Free Dance, 2nd Copy
7. Federica TESTA / Lukas CSOLLEY (SVK) - 131.72 Free Dance
8. Nicole ORFORD / Thomas WILLIAMS (CAN) - 128.88 Free Dance, 2nd Copy

Medal Ceremony

 

[fanofskating]

I may be in the minority but I actually prefered Shibutani's to C and Bates in both programs. I will admit that C and B are testing themselves with lifts but basic skating and sense of music, dance positions and general flow was on the Shibutani's side this weekend. Both are excellent teams but Bates gets a lot of speed from small hops and toes where the Shibutani's seem to use edge, glide and and nice basic pushes. 11 points is not close so I assume I am not in line with the panels thinking

 

[Mathman]

Do you really think that already at the beginning of the season Chock & Bates are stronger technicians and stronger in presentation than Virtue & Moir and Davis & White were in 2008 and 2009? Come on.

I think the judges are just giving out higher scores in general these days. Anyone who wins a Grand Prix event will score in the 8's in components, no matter how good Virtue and Moir or Davis and White used to be.

 

[KKonas]

I may be in the minority but I actually prefered Shibutani's to C and Bates in both programs. I will admit that C and B are testing themselves with lifts but basic skating and sense of music, dance positions and general flow was on the Shibutani's side this weekend. Both are excellent teams but Bates gets a lot of speed from small hops and toes where the Shibutani's seem to use edge, glide and and nice basic pushes. 11 points is not close so I assume I am not in line with the panels thinking

Suggest you re-watch FD - very little in the way of hops or toe pushes by Evan to gain speed. Igor specializes in working on speed and intricate transitions. Always has, which is why most of his students generally do well internationally. Judges like speed and difficulty combined because it's much harder to achieve.

 

[FlattFan]

Actually, I prefer C/B today than V/M and D/W in 2008 2009. They weren't nearly as sophisticated and their programs aren't as impressive.

 

[dorispulaski]

Suggest you re-watch FD - very little in the way of hops or toe pushes by Evan to gain speed. Igor specializes in working on speed and intricate transitions. Always has, which is why most of his students generally do well internationally. Judges like speed and difficulty combined because it's much harder to achieve.

For another thing, ice being incompressible, and vector momentum always being conserved, as per the laws of physics, you cannot improve your speed very easily doing hops. Only a hop with a change of a forward component of momentum can give you forward acceleration. Newton was right about that. And typically skaters lose forward momentum on the landing.
If it were not so, we would see all the single skaters accelerating like mad out of their huge jumps. Instead, we see them lucky to maintain their forward velocity.

The best way to gain speed is to stroke properly. If it were not so, hockey players and speed skaters would be hopping around like crazy rather than hiring ice dancers and skaters to teach them how to skate.

 

[chloepoco]

I don't get the judges' love for Chock & Bates. They're competent enough in getting the basic technical elements done, but as Carol Lane said on CBC, should they really have finished 11 points ahead of The Shibutanis? They don't do anything for me artistically, either, and I find their height difference a bit awkward.

Anyway, on a Canadian note, congratulations to Paradis & Ouelette for their nice skate and surprise 4th place finish. (Orford & Williams must be pretty crushed about finishing 8th, though).

I agree with you--I really don't think C/B are THAT much better than the Shibutani's. Hope this judging trend does not continue....

 

[Alba]

I don't get the judges' love for Chock & Bates. They're competent enough in getting the basic technical elements done, but as Carol Lane said on CBC, should they really have finished 11 points ahead of The Shibutanis? They don't do anything for me artistically, either, and I find their height difference a bit awkward.

They were a bit overscored. However, the Shibs did lose points on the levels in both programs.
Their GoE's actually were good, especially in the FD.

 

[layman]

I really enjoyed the top three teams and I think that the judges got the scoring right. I was very impressed with how hard Chock and Bates (and Igor Schpilband) worked on their dances. Everything was crisp, clean and precise and easy for the judges to see. I think that's how they earned those high levels.

The Shibutanis also have a beautiful dance. To compete with Chock and Bates though, they will have to up their speed, improve their lifts, stretch a bit more, make the waltz a bit "waltzier" and work on those technical element levels (by making them as crisp, clean and clear to the judges as we see from Chock and Bates). The Shibutanis have a good base to work from.

 

[dorispulaski]

layman, ITA. Both teams made an awesome start to the season, but Chock & Bates really did their technical homework since Nebelhorn. I hope to see the Shibutanis up their technical performance at their next GP! US Dance Nationals will be awesome again this year

 

[TontoK]

Regarding C/B costume choice: I believe their stated intent was to present a more modern innovative interpretation of the music from American in Paris... not to recreate some sort of "Disney on Ice" retelling of the story.

This is a choice I admire. My favorite D/W free dances were their tango and DF. Neither had a storyline. They danced to the music. Their skating spoke for itself.

I suppose I'm one of the few who is a proponent of skaters performing in understated costume. Enough already with the feathers and beads and bangles and leopardprint.

Edit to add: The same goes for hairstyling. We wonder why such an athletic and beautiful sport doesn't enjoy a wider audience, but we prattle on about hair-braiding techniques.

 

[sisinka]

Actually, I prefer C/B today than V/M and D/W in 2008 2009. They weren't nearly as sophisticated and their programs aren't as impressive.

It is about personal taste of course, so probably there is no way how to talk about all Components (but if you have really an opinion that Madison & Evan would be able to interpret better Pink Floyd FD, or Valse Triste Virtue & Moir skated in 2007…hmm…and comparing Umbrellas of Cherburg versus Les Miserables – I prefer Tessa although I was not a fan of this program at all). But choreography of Virtue & Moir and Davis & White in 2008 and 2009 was no way worse than in case of Chock & Bates here.

And comparing Skating Skills (which is a part of Components) is a bit funny. In 2009 the couples were skating Paso Doble in Compulsory Dance, only try to compare how Virtue & Moir and Davis White looked there...
V&M - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gq3vMU_r06A&feature=player_detailpage#t=31
D&W - https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ZHArKPinaJE#t=37
…and now Madison & Evan - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMSlN_NUTu8&feature=player_detailpage#t=104

That is like day and night difference in any part of Skating Skills (which are described in ISU rules).

 

[sisinka]

For another thing, ice being incompressible, and vector momentum always being conserved, as per the laws of physics, you cannot improve your speed very easily doing hops. Only a hop with a change of a forward component of momentum can give you forward acceleration. Newton was right about that. And typically skaters lose forward momentum on the landing.
If it were not so, we would see all the single skaters accelerating like mad out of their huge jumps. Instead, we see them lucky to maintain their forward velocity.

We already talked about it in some other thread. You are right in everything but one thing, Doris. You don’t describe the whole situation during jumps and hoops. You forget 2 very important things.

1) The most important part of the jump/hoop…after a skater lands it, then he/she makes a toe push of free leg and THIS increase a speed a lot.

2) If you make a jump/hoop – you avoid of changing direction using some skating turn. If you use bracket to change skating forward to skating backward – you really need a great technic not to loose speed and you have to be a perfect technician if you gain speed with this turn. While doing hoops you just change direction without any risk of loosing speed and then make a toe push of free leg at the end to increase speed.

That is the secret of doing jumps and hoops during programs…it is more easy and it helps technically not good couples to keep speed.

Chock & Bates:
Number of bigger jumps: 3 + 5 jumps at the very end of the program
Number of little hoops and toe steps: 25

Shibutani & Shibutani:
Number of bigger jumps: 4 + 2 jumps during Twizzles
Number of little hoops and toe steps: 24

Stepanova & Bukin:
Number of bigger jumps: only 2 jumps during Twizzles
Number of little hoops and toe steps: 15

The best way to gain speed is to stroke properly. If it were not so, hockey players and speed skaters would be hopping around like crazy rather than hiring ice dancers and skaters to teach them how to skate.

This is perfect to imagine!

Judges like speed and difficulty combined because it's much harder to achieve.

So if other couples will be faster and will have more difficult choreography - they will get higher Skating Skills then Chock & Bates?
Zueva speaks about the fastest couple the world had ever seen (even Superman is not that fast) - so Vika & Nikita will get over 9.50 points?

Kustarova's students were always known for technically very demanding programs and Lena & Ruslan were always fast...so another 9.50 for Skating Skills?

Monko & Khaliavin's programs are already known from Test Skate - their programs are more difficult then Madison & Evan's programs and they are very fast...so another 9.50 for Skating Skills?

And if Bobrova & Soloviev will come back strong and show what they usually show - great speed and very difficult choreo - without Virtue & Moir probably the most difficult choreo....10 for Skating Skills?

Cappellini & Lanotte were always rather slower couple....7.50 for Skating Skills?

Really?

 

[Ice Diva]

:thumbsup: sinsinka. Thanks so much for your posts. The V&M Paso is amazing - looks at their edges!