2014 Skate Canada Free Dance 11/01

[Snow63]

Why so?

I can’t speak about all competitions in last 50 years of Ice Dance. This season I made analysis of one Junior and two Seniors Grand Prix and my analysis is described somewhere here.

During those three events I found mistakes in Technical panel‘s decision and I wrote about it.
During those three events I wrote about, it happened twice in Zagreb and Kelowna that Russian Dance Team or Teams got lower Levels than they should get.
During those events it happened that couples from another country than Russia got higher levels and marks than deserved – USA, Canada, Ukraine, Hungary.

I understand that my analysis are too long to be read by everybody, but if you put some more effort to read it, you would notice that there were also “poor“ Spanish couple and “poor“ American couple who should get higher Components then they got.

And speaking concretely about senior Grand Prix, I didn’t think and I never wrote that Russian Dance Team should win here in Canada or in America.

Judging if not correct is wrong in any case no matter what country the couple or judges/Technical specialists are from. It is not my fault that Russian couples were those who were underscored here….and it is not my fault that it was US/Canadian/Italian Technical panel which gave them unfairly low score.

I would like to see clear judging. Any problem with it?

That was especially obvious at Zagreb. Too bad tech panel still have failed to drown M/Z there, and no US dance team will be skating at JGPF. :no:

 

[BounceAround]

Madison Hubbell & Zachary Donohue:

The couple is not overall too fast, but very good Skating Skills are visible even from 20th row.

...

Without any attempt to hide weaknesses, just choreography done to music style and the couple interprets it really well.

Overall I think that modern music is the style which suits this couple the most.

I agree with what you said about Hubbell and Donohue, and I especially agree with these parts. One thing I dislike is that judges often mark "skating skills = speed." The two are certainly related, but there are many skaters who skate slowly but otherwise have excellent basic skating.

 

[Ice Diva]

I agree with what you said about Hubbell and Donohue, and I especially agree with these parts. One thing I dislike is that judges often mark "skating skills = speed." The two are certainly related, but there are many skaters who skate slowly but otherwise have excellent basic skating.

IA. I've always thought Hubbell & Donohue had excellent skating skills, connection, lines & are exciting to watch - - way better the Chock & Bates whom I find quite boring & very overmarked IMO.

 

[Mathman]

IA. I've always thought Hubbell & Donohue had excellent skating skills, connection, lines & are exciting to watch - - way better the Chock & Bates whom I find quite boring & very overmarked IMO.

I lke Hubbel and Donahue, too. They have a smooth style that is very enjoyable to watch.

Chock and Bates, though, are not boring at all. They hold my interest all the way through. They are off to a great start this year.

 

[rvi5]

...One thing I dislike is that judges often mark "skating skills = speed." The two are certainly related, but there are many skaters who skate slowly but otherwise have excellent basic skating.

Fast + Good > Slower + Good > Fast + Sloppy > Slower + Sloppy

 

[chuckm]

Poor, poor Russian pairs. It is always a fault of bad (read: Western)technical panel when they are loosing. On ther other hand, when they are winning and a technical controller/specialist is a Russian this is their own talent which shines through, NOT at all connected with russian technical controller.

Yes, of course.
Just look at Monko / Khaliavin's gold medal scores from ICE STAR just two weeks ago:

162.81 67.50 95.31

Ref: BLR
TC: ITA
TS: UKR, BLR
Judges: UZB, POL, RUS, ITA, LAT, BLR

No wonder Zhulin was outraged at their SC scores!!

 

[wishonastar]

Remember that this competition is the first time that H/D have competed this season, and I read they have only had six weeks of full training to prepare. I imagine they will progressively increase speed as they more comfortable with their programs.

 

[Snow63]

Yes, of course.
Just look at Monko / Khaliavin's gold medal scores from ICE STAR just two weeks ago:

162.81 67.50 95.31

Ref: BLR
TC: ITA
TS: UKR, BLR
Judges: UZB, POL, RUS, ITA, LAT, BLR

No wonder Zhulin was outraged at their SC scores!!

And of course these judges were wrong, and SC panel was absolutely right. Just because they're from north america doesn't mean they're more objective and fair. In fact, using your logic SC tech panel overscored US and Canadian teams, since they're from the same country. But oh no, only canadian and US judges are fair... how can I doubt their ability to judge fair Double standarts on this board

Anyway, it's useless discussion. Everyone have their own truth.

 

[icedinn]

I actually liked m/k fd. When did she get so beautiful? Unfortunately a screw up on the twizzle's justifies their fourth place finish. Better luck next time.

 

[chuckm]

I thought M/K were way overscored at Ice Star and yes, they were underscored at SC. I thought G/P were overscored to ensure they won the SC silver medal, and at the same time, H/D cooperated by making a mistake (his fall) but probably would have been placed behind G/P anyway. I was shocked by how low M/K's FD score was.

 

[loop9497]

Isn't that what the sport should be about, being willing to try something different? To step out of that classical dance mode? Something needs to be done to get younger people interested in skating again, and seeing they can move like this on the ice rather than waltz around may show them.

I really do agree to some extent. I just thought it wasn't as thoroughly a strong program as it could be. There were parts that I did like. I think they just need more time to make it pop a little more. I think with the music they selected it should be more exciting. Plus competition in the US for the top two or three spots will be tight, so I am a bit concerned if it might hinder them. But it is early in the season and hopefully the program will get sharper and pop even more.

 

[blancanieves]

I really do agree to some extent. I just thought it wasn't as thoroughly a strong program as it could be. There were parts that I did like. I think they just need more time to make it pop a little more. I think with the music they selected it should be more exciting. Plus competition in the US for the top two or three spots will be tight, so I am a bit concerned if it might hinder them. But it is early in the season and hopefully the program will get sharper and pop even more.

I just saw the SC Gala and H/D performed there. Madi looks healthy and happy which is a good indicator that her body could handle the exertion of this competition. That is great. From here on she should be able to build her strength/stamina, and that will enable the team to train consistently again. I think the second half of the season is when they'll really be able to showcase themselves. They are behind on their preparation right now, so I'm just happy to see them integrate themselves to the pace of the season one step at a time.

 

[loop9497]

It is good to see them back and I hope they will stay injury free and pick up speed as the season progresses.

 

[Mao88]

FREE DANCE - VIDEOS & RESULT - updated

1. Kaitlyn WEAVER / Andrew POJE (CAN) - 171.10 Free Dance, 2nd Copy, 3rd Copy, 4th Copy
2. Piper GILLES / Paul POIRIER (CAN) - 152.60 Free Dance, 2nd Copy, 3rd Copy, 4th Copy
3. Madison HUBBELL / Zachary DONOHUE (USA) - 148.23 Free Dance, 2nd Copy, 3rd Copy, 4th Copy
4. Ksenia MONKO / Kirill KHALIAVIN (RUS) - 143.48 Free Dance, 2nd Copy, 3rd Copy , 4th Copy
5. Nelli ZHIGANSHINA / Alexander GAZSI (GER) - 140.95 Free Dance, 2nd Copy, 3rd Copy
6. Alexandra ALDRIDGE / Daniel EATON (USA) - 137.37 Free Dance, 2nd Copy
7. Elisabeth PARADIS / Francois-Xavier OUELLETTE (CAN) - 134.48 Free Dance, 2nd Copy, 3rd Copy
8. Sara HURTADO / Adria DIAZ (ESP) - 127.99 Free Dance, 2nd Copy

Medal Ceremony

 

[Ice Dance]

Overall Thoughts:

W&P--I loved them here. They are my favorite Canadian team ever because she can handle the drama. I wasn't keen on their free skate music choice, for obvious reasons--one of which is that I remember U&Z's Four Seasons. But I like the arrangement. I like the light opening. And I love the build up. They were slow (for them) & cautious here on the twizzles & the footwork sequence, but there's plenty of time to push those out throughout the season. Definitely the class of the field here, and I can't wait to see them go head to head against the Italians. (Absolutely cannot wait to see C&L!) I also loved the short program. It's a PASO DOBLE. Has the right style, the right attitude, the right sharpness. Short programs are about hitting the ultimate version of the program. Traditional IS the name of the game in the short, and W&P hit it.

G&P--Hate the cape. It distracts from the style of the dance. IMO, skirt work is part of the Paso Doble. The steps were neat & clean in practice, but it was hard to focus on with the cape drawing your attention. During the competition, they were skating crisp & clean, until the disaster in the twizzles. Extremely lucky they didn't lose the whole element. I think they were over scored in both portions of this competition. (In what world are they in a separate league from H&D? Not the real one). That said, their long was classy. Clean. And well skated. It is the better long of the two long programs. I'm fine with placing it over H&D's & with the placement overall.

H&D--I love them, and I am so mad at them. First, the PASO. What the heck? Maddie, you do NOT smile in a Paso Doble. What happened to the sexy, sultry H&D team that debuted top ten in their first season? This dance should be right up their ally. Fix the costumes. Drop the smile. And skate this with passion, dang it! H&D should be able to out Paso G&P with their hands tied behind their backs. They have the line, the height, and the ability to smolder. But they have to USE it! Next, the long. What a mess! Again, H&D have the elements, the highlights, the speed, & the strength to move up internationally this year. THIS is the year. Instead they're skating a hodgepodge of exhibition-style junk. No way Krylova picked this out for them. They have the elements. But this is ice dance. You have to have the program. Never will they get another chance like this to set themselves ahead of the Russian teams & no way are they going to do it with this.

M&K--This is my first sighting of this team. I was shocked they were in second after the short, but I was impressed by their speed in the long. I think he is the stronger dancer. Her posture & straight arm positions bothered me throughout. Their music for the free--way over their heads. I'll wait for another program, though, before forming an opinion overall.

E&A--I promised myself I would do the same with Eaton & Aldridge last year. (HATED the Bollywood number). Keeping that in mind, I think this is a vast improvement. They were skating clean & confident in the practice before the short. Better than M&K and H&D there, I think. (Not sure about G&P--I was so distracted by the cape). In the actual short competition, E&A were rougher than during practice (and H&D were stronger). Overall, though, good improvement for E&A from last year in both dances. I like the Tara long program. No, they can't perform up to these characters. But it's classy, has a nice tempo build-up, and is a MILLION times better than Bollywood.

Z&G--I think they're hurting from the changes in the twizzle requirements & just the general improvement in the technical demands of the sport. That said, I have tremendous respect for this team in carving out a place for themselves, despite their technical weaknesses, by drawing on their performance strength. For me, they are filling the role that Rahkomo & Kokko had back in the early nineties. Their short had more passion than many of the teams. They needed to hit the twizzles. The long needs work. (Are they allowed to do that throw at the beginning? Or are they just prioritizing the performance and taking an illegal element deduction?) No one outskated Z&G in the exhibition today.

P&O--This year is also my first sighting of them. Lovely flow in the long, and some nice lifts. No sharpness or strength in the PASO--and she also needs to scrap the smile; but I think they should be proud of this outing. IMO this field was a lot deeper than Skate America (or rather there were W&P and then a huge group of mid-level teams all battling for the same placements). Placing above the Spanish team. It's nothing to be scoffed at here.

H&D--First, I loved their PASO. Especially her style & expression, but also their choreography. They struggled in both practices to skate up to it, and that's OK. Better to be pushing themselves and working for the harder elements. The short has tons of potential. The long needs a LOT of work, a lot more speed, and a lot more footwork.

 

[Sk8AllOut]

Yes indeed, those technical panels are always looking to give more points to someone. Get real people, if they don't properly assess the event, they would not be brought back. Lemay has been a TS for numerous years and Marron also.

Poor, poor Russian pairs. It is always a fault of bad (read: Western)technical panel when they are loosing. On ther other hand, when they are winning and a technical controller/specialist is a Russian this is their own talent which shines through, NOT at all connected with russian technical controller.

 

[sisinka]

Yes, of course.
Just look at Monko / Khaliavin's gold medal scores from ICE STAR just two weeks ago:

162.81 67.50 95.31

Ref: BLR
TC: ITA
TS: UKR, BLR
Judges: UZB, POL, RUS, ITA, LAT, BLR

No wonder Zhulin was outraged at their SC scores!!

I didn’t see any videos, so I can read from Protocols only and compare it with the quality the couple showed in Canada.

M&K’s SD got in Minsk both Level 4 for Paso steps, in Canada both Level 3 althought they didn’t show poorer quality than couple who got the that Key Point 1 which M&K didn’t get.
In FD in Minsk Step Sequences were Level 3 and 4 and spin Level 4. In Canada the couple showed requirements for both Level 3 Steps and Level 4 Spin, but they didn’t get those Levels.

In Canada M&K lost one Level in Twizzles in both SD and FD, this was OK because of Piruette in it (but Madison also did a Piruette and nobody put in down). With Technical panel putting Levels properly, M&K would got almost the same base value of elements they got in Minsk.

Level 4 for Step Sequence in Minsk is under question – from technical side the couple is able to show all edges clean, but I really doubt that any Technical panel at Grand Prix or Euros or Worlds would gave the highest Level for Step Sequence to a couple who doesn’t have name yet (and even top couples are not getting such Levels).

Comparing GOE: in Minsk the couple got GOE + 4.45 points and + 6.48 points. In Canada the couple got GOE + 3.20 points and + 5.46 points. The difference is 1.25 points in SD and 1.02 points in FD…this is not tragical difference.

If you compare GOE in Canada, you will notice that G&P and H&D‘s GOE for Paso steps were higher than for M&K and Z&G’s GOE was the same. In FD even A&E got higher GOE for Step Sequences and Z&G’s GOE was almost the same. That is not reflecting the reality. Paso Doble Pattern of M&K had much better grade of execution in comparison with the rest of the couples who skated rather carefully. As to Step Sequences of M&K – GOE on the level of Z&G is a joke.

As to Skating Skills – in Minsk they got 8.13 and 8.00 points. In Canada Skating Skills were 7.25 and 7.54 points. If G&P got 7.64. points for Skating Skills, then 8.13 for M&K and H&Don would be fully on place.

In Minsk in SD Transitions were 8.06 points – it is nice that at least somebody noticed that M&K spend almost whole Transitions in program in close holds or dance holds.

Other Components – Choreography, Interpretation and Performance were too high in Minsk.

Overall points in Minsk should be lower for M&K while points in Canada should be higher in SD and higher a lot in FD.

 

[Sk8AllOut]

I have reviewed your comments and when looking at M/K SD and as this is a one sided conversation that they were robbed, I thought I would add my 2 cents.

Twizzle: she has a wobble, this is a reduction of one level as per the book
For the KP1 the man does not properly do the slide as he lifts toes at end of it, it should be full complete then pick up
Partial step KP1: lady no change of edge
No touch mid line step: When looking at him, he does not do 4 correct turns on one foot. the entrance to the bracket is flat, which right away cannot be a level 4. Also, her first Mohawk is flat on the entry just before the turn, this would not be good enough for a level 4. The

Overall Thoughts:

W&P--I loved them here. They are my favorite Canadian team ever because she can handle the drama. I wasn't keen on their free skate music choice, for obvious reasons--one of which is that I remember U&Z's Four Seasons. But I like the arrangement. I like the light opening. And I love the build up. They were slow (for them) & cautious here on the twizzles & the footwork sequence, but there's plenty of time to push those out throughout the season. Definitely the class of the field here, and I can't wait to see them go head to head against the Italians. (Absolutely cannot wait to see C&L!) I also loved the short program. It's a PASO DOBLE. Has the right style, the right attitude, the right sharpness. Short programs are about hitting the ultimate version of the program. Traditional IS the name of the game in the short, and W&P hit it.

G&P--Hate the cape. It distracts from the style of the dance. IMO, skirt work is part of the Paso Doble. The steps were neat & clean in practice, but it was hard to focus on with the cape drawing your attention. During the competition, they were skating crisp & clean, until the disaster in the twizzles. Extremely lucky they didn't lose the whole element. I think they were over scored in both portions of this competition. (In what world are they in a separate league from H&D? Not the real one). That said, their long was classy. Clean. And well skated. It is the better long of the two long programs. I'm fine with placing it over H&D's & with the placement overall.

H&D--I love them, and I am so mad at them. First, the PASO. What the heck? Maddie, you do NOT smile in a Paso Doble. What happened to the sexy, sultry H&D team that debuted top ten in their first season? This dance should be right up their ally. Fix the costumes. Drop the smile. And skate this with passion, dang it! H&D should be able to out Paso G&P with their hands tied behind their backs. They have the line, the height, and the ability to smolder. But they have to USE it! Next, the long. What a mess! Again, H&D have the elements, the highlights, the speed, & the strength to move up internationally this year. THIS is the year. Instead they're skating a hodgepodge of exhibition-style junk. No way Krylova picked this out for them. They have the elements. But this is ice dance. You have to have the program. Never will they get another chance like this to set themselves ahead of the Russian teams & no way are they going to do it with this.

M&K--This is my first sighting of this team. I was shocked they were in second after the short, but I was impressed by their speed in the long. I think he is the stronger dancer. Her posture & straight arm positions bothered me throughout. Their music for the free--way over their heads. I'll wait for another program, though, before forming an opinion overall.

E&A--I promised myself I would do the same with Eaton & Aldridge last year. (HATED the Bollywood number). Keeping that in mind, I think this is a vast improvement. They were skating clean & confident in the practice before the short. Better than M&K and H&D there, I think. (Not sure about G&P--I was so distracted by the cape). In the actual short competition, E&A were rougher than during practice (and H&D were stronger). Overall, though, good improvement for E&A from last year in both dances. I like the Tara long program. No, they can't perform up to these characters. But it's classy, has a nice tempo build-up, and is a MILLION times better than Bollywood.

Z&G--I think they're hurting from the changes in the twizzle requirements & just the general improvement in the technical demands of the sport. That said, I have tremendous respect for this team in carving out a place for themselves, despite their technical weaknesses, by drawing on their performance strength. For me, they are filling the role that Rahkomo & Kokko had back in the early nineties. Their short had more passion than many of the teams. They needed to hit the twizzles. The long needs work. (Are they allowed to do that throw at the beginning? Or are they just prioritizing the performance and taking an illegal element deduction?) No one outskated Z&G in the exhibition today.

P&O--This year is also my first sighting of them. Lovely flow in the long, and some nice lifts. No sharpness or strength in the PASO--and she also needs to scrap the smile; but I think they should be proud of this outing. IMO this field was a lot deeper than Skate America (or rather there were W&P and then a huge group of mid-level teams all battling for the same placements). Placing above the Spanish team. It's nothing to be scoffed at here.

H&D--First, I loved their PASO. Especially her style & expression, but also their choreography. They struggled in both practices to skate up to it, and that's OK. Better to be pushing themselves and working for the harder elements. The short has tons of potential. The long needs a LOT of work, a lot more speed, and a lot more footwork.

 

[Alba]

IA. I've always thought Hubbell & Donohue had excellent skating skills, connection, lines & are exciting to watch - - way better the Chock & Bates whom I find quite boring & very overmarked IMO.

I like H&D (USA) more than C&B too. I also find C&B quite boring, mainly because of him.
However, let's not confuse our personal perception towards skaters with the marking. They might've been overmarked a bit, but it happens for all couples (skaters in general). Certainly top 5, or even top 10.

That was especially obvious at Zagreb. Too bad tech panel still have failed to drown M/Z there, and no US dance team will be skating at JGPF. :no:

No USA dance team at JGPF? Why?

 

[Snow63]

No USA dance team at JGPF? Why?

Parsons/Parsons were the only ones who had a chance before last event at Zagreb. After the first event they needed to win at Zagreb and one of the russian teams (Morozova/Zhirnov or Yanovskaya/Mozgov, both winners of their first events) should be no higher than 4th place (if P/P win) or 5th place (if P/P came second). The most possible scenario (and the only real, IMO) for P/P to qulify to JGPF was to win silver medal (Y/M overall winners) and M/Z to come 5th.
And it almost happened. P/P scored VERY well (in fact, a bunch of PBs) while Y/M and M/Z got marked really LOW (a tons of level 1s in both SD and FD), especially M/Z. For example, M/Z FD score was 72 points (it's almost 11 points lower than at their first GP, and it was lowest BV out of top 7), and they finished 5th in FD (after even hungarians and ukrainians, who had visible mistakes). Parsons, hungarians and ukrainians also had a sudden boost in ther PCS (especially ukrainians and hungarians, up to 4 points to their last event PCS). But it was enough for M/Z to finish 4th overall, Y/M won.
Oh, and I forgot to mention that it'll be Canada VS Russia JGPF (both countries have 3 teams). VERY interesting. IMO, it was a clearly planned action to drag any other (than Canadian or Russian) team in JGPF. But the field wasn't deep enough to drown M/Z lower than 4th place, and it was almost impossible to drown Y/M even to the second place. Other teams were so much weaker technically that it was almost funny. But the sad thing in this situation were Morozova's and Zhirnov's faces when their FD scores were announced. They were so happy right after the dance, all smiles and hugs and cries, they though they did great, and a couple minutes later in K&C after their scores were announced they looked like someone have died right before their eyes.

You can read some people thoughts after the event here: http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?52249-2014-Croatia-Cup-JGP-Free-Dance This thread is hilarious And it's only 3 pages, so it'll not take a lot of your time.

P.S. But it's obviously just my version. Conspiracy theory at its best

Edit: oooh, long post. I should say something on topic. Go G/P!