2017 Four Continents Short Dance

[NoNameFace]

I don't want to discount the Shibs because I really like them and their programs this year but I honestly don't think they have a real chance at beating V/M. :confused2:

If we're talking general landscape of ice dance, I do think Shibs could be a genuine threat to P/C (especially when they make mistakes).

agree on that, and then we'll have another flame/'beef' in ice dance - Shibutanis versus French which will be quite brutal, especially if Shibutanis will score around 114 in FD...

 

[Max2skating]

I think the judges could easily drop higher scores for Chock/Bates and Hubbell/Donohue.

They get more base value and levels on the technical elements but still had very less GOE score and PCS in comparasion with the Shibs.

What a shame what happened with Piper and Andrew.

 

[WeakAnkles]

it was heartbreaking
1) they were skating divinely before and after that
2) canadians were already stressed out after what happened to piper
3) everyone on gs seems to want them gone and i don't
4) they managed the 3rd best PCS and deserved it IMHO... which means they would be 3rd without the mistake...
5) the gap is hard to make even with a stellar FP
6) people thought the judges dropped them... well they didn't .... twizzles did them in...

aiya

Just for the record, in no way, shape or form do I want the WePo gone. I have always been a big fan of them as a team, and I think Morozov did one right thing for them: he created a FD for them to showcase their strongest asset: their ability to convey passion that is positively palpable (how's that for alliteration?!). The problem I have with the program is the problem I have with pretty much every Morozov ID program I've seen: they would make wonderful pairs' programs, but they seemly aim to take the dance out of the dance.

As for #4, that's a big what if. PCS has been used by judges to compensate for lower TES for years and years. It's quite possible that their PCS would have gone down a smidge if their TES had been higher. I'm not saying it would have; I'm saying it could have. PCS manipulation is the big bugaboo of current IJS scoring.

I'm also not saying that the judges have dropped them. But I do think they've lost the "benefit of the doubt" the top teams get. And that their scores this season ARE a Western Union message.

Just my two cents. YMMV of course.

 

[Mango]

Weaver/Poje's SD is just not a good vehicle for them this season. It hasn't hit that tier of marks that some of the GPF finalists are at. They definitely need twizzles that Andrew can do with ease, for starters. They should rebound in the FD if they don't make mistakes but they won't be finishing on the podium unless C/B and H/D have a meltdown or something. I'm beginning to wonder where they'll end up at Worlds... their current trajectory has them out of the top 6. PCS do suggest the judges like them but TES is not keeping up, and so they are pushing themselves down the standings.

Gilles/Poirier also need to figure out what is going wrong. At TdF it was the twizzles - they got too close or something, if I recall correctly. They've fixed that as we've seen over the past 3 competitions. But their levels are low. Lower than early in the season. If Weaver/Poje take time to hit their stride then Gilles/Poirier are the opposite, hitting their stride early and now losing their way in that SD. This score was not just about Piper's fall though - they would have still been in the 60s without it. Once again, they'll bounce back in the FD but being 10 points out of 5th, it's not going to go far. Best they can finish is 6th.

 

[Mrs. P]

I see that there is new flame ignited - now we have Tessa/Scott versus Gabriella/Guillaume AND Maia/Alex versus Tessa/Scott...

My take on this - yes, I think that today Tessa and Scott again slayed that performance and that program. Fabulous lines, amazing extensions, edge work, musicality, interaction, chemistry, expression...I can go on more and more, because they're showing us this season that there is so much to appreciate in their skating, there are so many dimensions in their work - some will like their chemistry/partnering, some their execution, some musicality and some interpretation. They make that program and Prince music alive with their exquisite interpretation, expression and sharpness in musicality for me; to have good choreography is one thing, to have good music chosen (fitting to the team, with proper cuts and going well with choreo) is other thing, but to make both these aspects work is another story. Tessa and Scott managed not only come back successfully, with strength, precision and sharpness, but they also managed to create already an icon of a program for me with that SD.

And yes - I would give them higher PCS, no doubt considering how confident they're performing it, how comfortable they're feeling with it and how easy and pleasant it looks on viewers' eyes, not mentioning that their best qualities are shining through that program so prominently. But moving to Maia and Alex - I don't see a point to bash their PCS received that much...For me, this is one of their best works in all their senior careers - this SD embodies being fresh, hip, modern, creative and it's a very appealing combination. And it was fabulously executed, with so much attack, precision, sharpness and attitude. Yes - I saw an attitude there, so much character and charisma put into that dance. No wonder that they're making quite an impression. For me it's more about how far they developed PCS-wise than how close they are with Tessa and Scott, for me both teams are now equally appealing after that drastic shift in Shibutanis work. Yes - they were always good, solid technicians, but somehow their material was totally off the mark for me, not highlighting their best assets, hence no wonder that they were scored low. Moreover - I did not feel this creativity, freedom of expression, they did not use their technical basis (pristine ones) to interpret/present programs like they do now, there was no personality, identity put in them and now - it's all there for me, and it's making a huge difference.

As I wrote there already - while Chock/Bates for me sold their SD mainly by facial expression (at least Madison did), Maia and Alex did it by actual full performance: skating, interpreting music, putting charisma in it, incorporating hip-hop moves oh-so-superbly. Shibutanis really did their lessons in last two seasons, they learned how to capitalize on their best qualities, how to express themselves the best and how to do it with fitting programs. As a result, this creates more cohesive, full package to watch and score which is my understanding why their PCS is so good now and even climbing up. It's the program - I agree - but at the same time it's beyond it. It's a sum of learning from disappointment, ability to change themselves and then change others' perception about them. They managed to do that and I salute them. Job fabulously done - kudos to Maurizio to keep up this tech side so sharp and all involved in SD choreography -

Nice post and really great points.

I think another thing to keep in mind that Maia and Alex also dealt with a number of physical struggles -- namely Alex's injury that really played havoc in the 2011-2012/2012-2013 seasons and also that Maia was growing. Do you guys remember when Alex was like super muscular in the 2013 season? I feel they spent a lot of time trying to figure out how improve Alex's strength post-injury as well as to properly lift Maia. And I think that really affected some of the things they did well, such as precision and edge work. I also think that reduced the amount of available time to work on things, such as packaging/programs, at least to the level of satisfaction or to really budge those PCS scores.

 

[daphenaxa]

why are the marks so disparate on V/M partial steps?

i watched programs from Muramoto/Reed and Wang/Liu, LOVE those two teams

Also why have the official documents gone back to the judges nationality being anonymous?

 

[NoNameFace]

Nice post and really great points.

I think another thing to keep in mind that Maia and Alex also dealt with a number of physical struggles -- namely Alex's injury that really played havoc in the 2011-2012/2012-2013 seasons and also that Maia was growing. Do you guys remember when Alex was like super muscular in the 2013 season? I feel they spent a lot of time trying to figure out how improve Alex's strength post-injury as well as to properly lift Maia. And I think that really affected some of the things they did well, such as precision and edge work. I also think that reduced the amount of available time to work on things, such as packaging/programs, at least to the level of satisfaction or to really budge those PCS scores.

thanks a lot

I mean, after all - it's mostly about our personal preference and perceptions on actual performance which have an influence on our opinions over scores/judging and we can't help it, especially those who have heavy favourites.

For me, in Shibutanis case it is all about constant strong work, persistence and right choices/changes made which led them to this kind of scoring now, it's not like sudden meteoric rise. Better, or 'more fitting' material paired with solid, sharp execution really helps in perception of the team as a whole. And yes - I get it that their programs are not everybody's cup of tea, but looking at the whole field they really stepped it up, they maintain solid-rock execution, are in synch, earn their levels (usually) which is a great and much-needed base to be rewarded in PCS.

And it pains me considered WeaPo and Piper and Paul that they have such promising material in their hands (Piper and Paul in particular), but somehow can't execute it properly, at least in SD which can't give you a win, but can guarantee you a loose or a gap very much impossible to work back.

 

[Mrs. P]

thanks a lot

I mean, after all - it's mostly about our personal preference and perceptions on actual performance which have an influence on our opinions over scores/judging and we can't help it, especially those who have heavy favourites.

For me, in Shibutanis case it is all about constant strong work, persistence and right choices/changes made which led them to this kind of scoring now, it's not like sudden meteoric rise. Better, or 'more fitting' material paired with solid, sharp execution really helps in perception of the team as a whole. And yes - I get it that their programs are not everybody's cup of tea, but looking at the whole field they really stepped it up, they maintain solid-rock execution, are in synch, earn their levels (usually) which is a great and much-needed base to be rewarded in PCS.

And it pains me considered WeaPo and Piper and Paul that they have such promising material in their hands (Piper and Paul in particular), but somehow can't execute it properly, at least in SD which can't give you a win, but can guarantee you a loose or a gap very much impossible to work back.

With Piper and Paul is that they try to stand out by upping the difficult content but they don't necessarily have the skills base to back up that difficultly, which is why I think they end up having problems executing their programs and I think invites the criticisms that they are trying to gimmick their way to the top.

 

[moon]

I may be the only one here that feels nothing when watching the Shibs SD. I have seen it live twice and they are precise, have some interesting choreography but it can not hold my attention like some of the other SDs that actually feel like they have some life and soul to them.

 

[apple123]

I may be the only one here that feels nothing when watching the Shibs SD. I have seen it live twice and they are precise, have some interesting choreography but it can not hold my attention like some of the other SDs that actually feel like they have some life and soul to them.

You are certainly not alone. I guess it's the lack of charisma. They just can't draw me in either.

 

[bramweld]

You are certainly not alone. I guess it's the lack of charisma. They just can't draw me in either.

They are very clean and pleasant in this short dance and thats just about it actually. I get that the judges like their personality but this is a COMPETITION. Barring V/M the only real SP/SD today that captured the blues was Sui and Han. Can somebody please, please choreograph something like that for Ilinykh? She's the only ice dancer who has the real sass to pull it off. I just need to go cry somewhere all by myself :sad21:

 

[Osmond4gold]

Hi friends! I ended up missing the entire short dance because ...

On behalf of your friends, we love you SarahSynchro...be well and take care!

 

[Astrid56]

I may be the only one here that feels nothing when watching the Shibs SD. I have seen it live twice and they are precise, have some interesting choreography but it can not hold my attention like some of the other SDs that actually feel like they have some life and soul to them.

They certainly deliver the parts of the choreography very well - steps, expressions, style ... and you sense ... recognize their skating proficiency but they lack the 'it' factor, maybe you call it 'charisma'. Love the program but am not 'feeling it' hence the soulless perception.

 

[Barb]

They are very clean and pleasant in this short dance and thats just about it actually. I get that the judges like their personality but this is a COMPETITION. Barring V/M the only real SP/SD today that captured the blues was Sui and Han. Can somebody please, please choreograph something like that for Ilinykh? She's the only ice dancer who has the real sass to pull it off. I just need to go cry somewhere all by myself :sad21:

Yes, 3 years ago their personalities were so ugly.

 

[NoNameFace]

They are very clean and pleasant in this short dance and thats just about it actually. I get that the judges like their personality but this is a COMPETITION. Barring V/M the only real SP/SD today that captured the blues was Sui and Han. Can somebody please, please choreograph something like that for Ilinykh? She's the only ice dancer who has the real sass to pull it off. I just need to go cry somewhere all by myself :sad21:

personally, I don't see anything wrong with appreciation of team's personality/character presented in actual performance/program and a competition, on contrary - if the team is able to perform their program with personal element/feel added (call it personality, charisma, sass, attitude...), it increases their competitive value and help with upping their overall presentation/performance level in my opinion.

The question is about how OUR personal perceptions/preferences are projecting onto actual results. We wish a lot of things to be differently placed, scored, evaluated, we wish often that certain qualities would be taken into consideration more or less, I understand it. I get that we all have our perfect picture version of SD with 'bluesy' Blues pattern, but honestly - I would not expect all teams doing deep-root Blues theme for their pattern/partial step sequence and treat the theme literally. Yes - I agree it is great to see team like Tessa and Scott doing Blues the justice, but it's also great to see many other teams still incorporating Blues pattern successfully, adhering to rules imposed for SD/pattern et all, but being 'outside of the Blues' at the same time regarding feel of the dance, picture created. It is all possible due to this second rhythm chosen - as a result, we have some hip-hop extravaganzas (more or less successful), a Disco exception and lots of other variations. And different thing (programs) are appealing to various viewers.

Another thing is scoring - even if the team is not having 'Bluesy' Blues pattern, they still could have a good program with Blues smartly incorporated and do its effect, especially if skated sharply and precisely. And me myself could not be a huge fan of the program, but its execution and expression can be solid and appealing as a performance for me (example could be Weaver/Poje or Stepanova/Bukin this season)

 

[cathlen]

So I came home only to be heartbroken for scores P squared and WeaPo have earned :hopelessness: I guess this competition is not meant for my favourites I think I need some time to find courage to watch 4CC SD videos...

 

[NoNameFace]

So I came home only to be heartbroken for scores P squared and WeaPo have earned :hopelessness: I guess this competition is not meant for my favourites I think I need some time to find courage to watch 4CC SD videos...

hi

I feel You , I was watching it live and somehow both teams can't find their consistency regarding execution...

at least Sui/Han did marvellously from what I heard

 

[cathlen]

hi

I feel You , I was watching it live and somehow both teams can't find their consistency regarding execution...

at least Sui/Han did marvellously from what I heard

I've just started watching Pairs videos, but from what I've seen from scores, they did awesome for a first competition after Sui's recovery! Yes, I hope their skate will heal my heart Ok, Ice Dance teams. Please take example of them and improve youselves in FD, please! I don't care about places anymore, just great skates!

 

[sarama]

at least Sui/Han did marvellously from what I heard

They were the highlight of the entire first day of competition

 

[Mrs. P]

personally, I don't see anything wrong with appreciation of team's personality/character presented in actual performance/program and a competition, on contrary - if the team is able to perform their program with personal element/feel added (call it personality, charisma, sass, attitude...), it increases their competitive value and help with upping their overall presentation/performance level in my opinion.

The question is about how OUR personal perceptions/preferences are projecting onto actual results. We wish a lot of things to be differently placed, scored, evaluated, we wish often that certain qualities would be taken into consideration more or less, I understand it. I get that we all have our perfect picture version of SD with 'bluesy' Blues pattern, but honestly - I would not expect all teams doing deep-root Blues theme for their pattern/partial step sequence and treat the theme literally. Yes - I agree it is great to see team like Tessa and Scott doing Blues the justice, but it's also great to see many other teams still incorporating Blues pattern successfully, adhering to rules imposed for SD/pattern et all, but being 'outside of the Blues' at the same time regarding feel of the dance, picture created. It is all possible to this second rhythm chosen - as a result, we have some hip-hop extravaganzas (more or less successful), a Disco exception and lots of other variations. And different thing (programs) are appealing to various viewers.

Another thing is scoring - even if the team is not having 'Bluesy' Blues pattern, they still could have a good program with Blues smartly incorporated and do its effect, especially if skated sharply and precisely. And me myself could not be a huge fan of the program, but its execution and expression can be solid and appealing as a performance for me (example could be Weaver/Poje or Stepanova/Bukin this season)

Another fab post.

All the comments about Sui and Han's blues vs those being shown in this season's SDs, which don't get me wrong I LOVE the program, is a bit apples+oranges because Sui and Han also don't have to do deal with a blues pattern dance and a partial step sequence with specific requirements like double twizzles and the such. Would we get THAT program from Sui and Han if they had to incorporate those elements?

And honestly, I actually didn't even think about how bluesy Sui/Han's program and I actually think it's not that bluesy -- my take on it is that it's a very chic and modern dance with all the staccato footwork and arm movements.

I think it's really easy to say "I don't like it, so hence judges shouldn't score it well." I'm sure personal preference factors somewhat with the judges, but for the most part they're trying to judge these SD on a very specific criteria.

When I compare this SD from the Shibs to the one from 2013, i.e. the Missing Polka, as far as execution I can see improvements and clearly so do the judges.