2017 GP NHK Free Dance

[rosy14]

It’s 2017, the 21st century. Not 1917...

Oh, yeah, but women are women and men are men. In 2017 and in 1917. The only difference is that then men went to war and were killed by millions, now...only by thousands.
I wouldn’t have chosen “1917” as a comparison. Better 1997 or 1907, the Moulin Rouge period.

 

[madison]

there are two reasons why Moonlight Sonata, despite being a famous piece of music is not chosen often
1) there is an iconic performance of it by Gordeeva and Grinkov
2) it is extremely difficult to do sensible music cuts with it....

and regarding 2), people complain about Moulin Rouge and Ewan MacGregor and so on... but I find that MR is at least smoothly designed in terms of music cuts... Moonlight Sonata's faster section comes abruptly and is not well utilized as there are no steps nor twizzles on it, which would have been exciting... a stationary lift, a spin.... both elements rotate but stay in one spot... when the music inspires ice coverage...

So if you want to talk about the brilliant choice of Beethoven for P/C I recommend you sit down with the score, and play through the piece... and imagine choreography on it... if you cannot play the instrument, still, take the score and look at the 3rd movement... the waves of 16th notes that start from the lower register of the piano going higher and higher... and then restarting... etc... there is a lot of opportunities here for ice coverage, for exciting twizzles and intricate step sequences... however all of these elements have been reserved for the slow and static part of the piece....

It makes, imho, the choreography disjointed with the music... even if the first half is beautifully skated and created, when you look at the whole picture, the composition to me, doesn't work at all. So if we are going to investigate about MR, the movie, or its awful picture and tacky movie, let's investigate elsewhere...
To me, what matters is how the choreography matches the music emotionally, both locally and globally.

I find V/M do that, and need to improve the last 20-30 seconds though it is more convincing now. I find that P/C do that brilliantly with their smooth glide in the slow section of the Beethoven but it ends there for me.... I don't understand what they are trying to portray in the second half.. and please, next time you need to cut a few bars here and there.. (or repeat some)... don't do this lightly... it's very disruptive for anyone who knows the piece just a tiny bit.

YMMV

I have to agree with that... I love P/C and really like all their free programs but this one is the worse among the last 4 or so.... The music is just much more powerful than them during the last step seq.

 

[blueberryhill]

Really Rosy14? No need to be nasty or to project strong dislike onto people you have never met! That does nor reflect well on you or the fans of V/M.

Well peepsquick, on Nov 7th, you had a post in Tessa and Scott's fanfest that wasn't particularly nice towards their fans. That post has since been removed by the moderators.

 

[Anyasnake]

I have to agree with that... I love P/C and really like all their free programs but this one is the worse among the last 4 or so.... The music is just much more powerful than them during the last step seq.

I actually really like what they do with the music, I found them to embody it really well (they got a lot of PCS for music interpretation last week), but for sure it'll grow, at least it has to.
The rest is a matter of taste of course

 

[rosy14]

there are two reasons why Moonlight Sonata, despite being a famous piece of music is not chosen often
1) there is an iconic performance of it by Gordeeva and Grinkov
2) it is extremely difficult to do sensible music cuts with it....

and regarding 2), people complain about Moulin Rouge and Ewan MacGregor and so on... but I find that MR is at least
smoothly designed in terms of music cuts... Moonlight Sonata's faster section comes abruptly and is not well utilized as there are no steps nor twizzles on it, which would have been exciting... a stationary lift, a spin.... both elements rotate but stay in one spot... when the music inspires ice
So if you want to talk about the brilliant choice of Beethoven for P/C I recommend you sit down with the score, and play through the piece... and imagine choreography on it... if you cannot play the instrument, still, take the score and look at
the 3rd movement... the waves of 16th notes that start from the lower register of the piano going higher and higher... and
restarting... etc... there is a lot of opportunities here for ice coverage, for exciting twizzles and intricate step sequences... however all of these elements have been reserved for the slow and static part of the piece....

It makes, imho, the choreography disjointed with the music... even if the first half is beautifully skated and created, when you look at the whole picture, the composition to me, doesn't work at all. So if we are going to investigate about MR, the movie, or its awful picture and tacky movie, let's investigate elsewhere...
To me, what matters is how the choreography matches the music emotionally, both locally and globally.

I find V/M do that, and need to improve the last 20-30 seconds though it is more convincing now. I find that P/C do that brilliantly with their smooth glide in the slow section of the Beethoven but it ends there for me.... I don't understand what they are trying to portray in the second half.. and please, next time you need to cut a few bars here and there.. (or repeat some)... don't do this lightly... it's very disruptive for anyone who knows the piece just a tiny bit.

YMMV

Thank you for this detailed, thoroughly, instructive analysis.

 

[rosy14]

I think Liz Punsalan made a good and plain point in that Skatin Lesson video on 2015 Worlds. She didn't think the French had the best skate in Shanghai but that the French showed abandon and freedom that people miss about "old skating", before the IJS turned it into somewhat of a collection of big elements.

H/D's FD this season achieves the blurring of technical requirements and freedom of dancing too, earthly and passionate, as compared to the French's ethereal and transcendent.

So P/C are rewarded for not following IJS book, while Medvedeva is rewarded for following it ???? Two poids and two measures ?
And by the way, if they are the “new era” for Olympic dance, while all the others, apparently, not only V/M, are the “old”, why don’t give ‘em the gold medal, and skip the competition up until 2022?
The young couples, American and Russians, jumiors and just seniors, seem much more “old”
than “ new”. So P/C forever ?

 

[MelDee]

 

[peepsquick]

there are two reasons why Moonlight Sonata, despite being a famous piece of music is not chosen often
1) there is an iconic performance of it by Gordeeva and Grinkov
2) it is extremely difficult to do sensible music cuts with it....

and regarding 2), people complain about Moulin Rouge and Ewan MacGregor and so on... but I find that MR is at least smoothly designed in terms of music cuts... Moonlight Sonata's faster section comes abruptly and is not well utilized as there are no steps nor twizzles on it, which would have been exciting... a stationary lift, a spin.... both elements rotate but stay in one spot... when the music inspires ice coverage...

So if you want to talk about the brilliant choice of Beethoven for P/C I recommend you sit down with the score, and play through the piece... and imagine choreography on it... if you cannot play the instrument, still, take the score and look at the 3rd movement... the waves of 16th notes that start from the lower register of the piano going higher and higher... and then restarting... etc... there is a lot of opportunities here for ice coverage, for exciting twizzles and intricate step sequences... however all of these elements have been reserved for the slow and static part of the piece....

It makes, imho, the choreography disjointed with the music... even if the first half is beautifully skated and created, when you look at the whole picture, the composition to me, doesn't work at all. So if we are going to investigate about MR, the movie, or its awful picture and tacky movie, let's investigate elsewhere...
To me, what matters is how the choreography matches the music emotionally, both locally and globally.

I find V/M do that, and need to improve the last 20-30 seconds though it is more convincing now. I find that P/C do that brilliantly with their smooth glide in the slow section of the Beethoven but it ends there for me.... I don't understand what they are trying to portray in the second half.. and please, next time you need to cut a few bars here and there.. (or repeat some)... don't do this lightly... it's very disruptive for anyone who knows the piece just a tiny bit.

YMMV

Dear Everchan, a few thoughts of my own ...
The fact that Gordeeva and Grinkov skated spectacularly to Moonlight Sonata doesn't mean everybody should stay clear of it. They were pair skaters ... different rules, possibilities. If someone can create another iconic moment, this time in Ice Dance, it is P/C.
You always end up "butchering" a piece of music when you have cuts. Here the music serves as support: we are NOT at a concert. I understand your pain as a musician but then you should be in a lot of pain all the time when it comes to Ice Dance or even Figure Skating as a whole because such cuts are quite common. It might be more jarring when it touches such a well-known piece but again, this a not a music venue.
I distinctly hear echos of Ms. Lane on the stationary lift ... to me it fits perfectly and we get plenty of ice coverage soon after.
Why do you want a step-by-step story behind a choreography? Their dance speaks for itself, not everything needs to be spelled out. Just relax, forget that they might (just might!) come on top and enjoy!

 

[Anyasnake]

We're getting off topic from the NHK freedance though :noshake:

 

[4everchan]

Dear Everchan, a few thoughts of my own ...
The fact that Gordeeva and Grinkov skated spectacularly to Moonlight Sonata doesn't mean everybody should stay clear of it. They were pair skaters ... different rules, possibilities. If someone can create another iconic moment, this time in Ice Dance, it is P/C.
You always end up "butchering" a piece of music when you have cuts. Here the music serves as support: we are NOT at a concert. I understand your pain as a musician but then you should be in a lot of pain all the time when it comes to Ice Dance or even Figure Skating as a whole because such cuts are quite common. It might be more jarring when it touches such a well-known piece but again, this a not a music venue.
I distinctly hear echos of Ms. Lane on the stationary lift ... to me it fits perfectly and we get plenty of ice coverage soon after.
Why do you want a step-by-step story behind a choreography? Their dance speaks for itself, not everything needs to be spelled out. Just relax, forget that they might (just might!) come on top and enjoy!

just a few pointers
1) i didn't say that nobody should skate on it... I explained WHY it's a piece of music that is less often used as some people were mentioning how rare it was used though it's very famous : it's like Torville and Dean's bolero.... it's very rarely used, even in other disciplines than Ice Dance because their rendition of it is iconic.

2)yes... i have been watching figure skating for 30 years... yes.. i have heard awful music cuts of masterpieces... I can name many from Osmond, to Yuzuru, to BobSol... etc.. however, if anything, I usually find that what gets out of Gadbois is usually well cut... and that choreography matches the music...

Not this time... and unfortunately, I cannot just sit down and relax, when I find that it's a huge missed opportunity as I AM NOT ENJOYING IT...

As I said, it's my opinion, based on my own experience and taste... I am not preaching. I am simply sharing my vision of this music selection and choreography... to me, it's a huge disappointment, missed opportunities... it could have been stellar...it could have been epic and iconic..

Will they win or not? I couldn't care less... I care about programs I will want to watch again, like their Mozart... I won't watch the Beethoven again, after this season, unless it's fixed.

YMMV

 

[4everchan]

We're getting off topic from the NHK freedance though :noshake:

in some ways, all the competition threads do this... during the thread, there are brief mentions of other contenders, especially those that haven't competed in the same events... for instance here, Shibs and P/C were mentioned because they haven't faced yet V/M.... and when the event has been done, people reflect about strengths and weaknesses of programs and teams... So I guess it's normal...

To get back on track : what made me the most sad is that Laurence and Nikolaj will stay home for these Olympics, with such a brilliant FD. I was also impressed by SinKats's FD... sure Rachmaninoff and old style of skating, but they performed it very well.... I am not sure they are Russian #3.

 

[Anyasnake]

in some ways, all the competition threads do this... during the thread, there are brief mentions of other contenders, especially those that haven't competed in the same events... for instance here, Shibs and P/C were mentioned because they haven't faced yet V/M.... and when the event has been done, people reflect about strengths and weaknesses of programs and teams... So I guess it's normal...

To get back on track : what made me the most sad is that Laurence and Nikolaj will stay home for these Olympics, with such a brilliant FD. I was also impressed by SinKats's FD... sure Rachmaninoff and old style of skating, but they performed it very well.... I am not sure they are Russian #3.

I know, I just don't want it to turn into some bickering... prevention is everything You're right, back on track.

The Danes story is a bit heartbreaking, they are world class. Maybe a european medal could fix that (and that is totally doable in 2019).
I wasn't that impressed with Sinkats... I feel they were give high levels too, especially on the Dist where Nikita almost lost it. It's true that the scoring isn't that clear to whom might be #3 in Russia, but S/B are in France next week. It should give us more information, if they can hold up that 71 SD and 108 FD, because skating at home is always better for your marks.

 

[ancientpeas]

Moonlight Sonata is one of my very favourite pieces of music. I loved G/G's version but I have no problem with P/C skating to it. I do think of G/G sometimes when I hear it and miss them but it is what it is.

I also like Tango de Roxanne a lot. I actually expected to like what V/M would do with it more than I actually do. It's getting there. I'm less worried than I was before NHK about it. But I would actually prefer they do the whole thing to Tango and skip the come what may part. I like to see programs build and build and I think they could have constructed this to be about what Tango de Roxanne is about: Jealousy and unrequited love. I think that would have been really dramatic and really powerful. The end, how it is now, leaves me kind of.. well it's a denouement and the contrast between the first part until the last lift and then the end is a little too fast for me. I guess it's sort of a compliment to them in that I know, even without seeing MR, what the story is that they are trying to tell. A man in love with a woman who he thinks he will never have, getting her and losing her permanently. Even if my life depended on it I'm not sure I could tell you what the story of 95% of the FDs are without some sort of explanation from the dancers.

In the end I think this: V/M have the better short (by quite a bit although I am impressed with P/C's short because it is pretty good) and I like P/C's FD more (but it's close with V/M because I do like MR quite a bit). For me it's a nail bitter. I think it really will come down to levels and twizzles and GOE. I have the feeling one of the teams will reach out and seize it on the day and just have the better performance.

I wonder, if Canada does win the Team Gold (I think it's getting away from us a bit-I'd say Russia is the favourite now), if that will really free up V/M to just go for it and throw caution to the wind and just be totally in the moment. That I think is P/C's strong suit in the FD. To be.. THERE with abandon. It's all feeling, all emotion if the levels are similar and that is why I think P/C will win the FD but lose the SD and it will be really close in the end. For the moment I'd say V/M by a hair but that's a feeling rather than an education opinion. I can see either winning and I'm good with that.

I'd really like to see H/D get the national title and win the bronze based on what I have seen so far from everyone. I'm also good with the Shibs or B/S getting the bronze and of course W/P would be a sentimental choice for me but I'm not counting on it.

 

[icetigger]

I'm not sure on the first edit of Moonlight Sonata- I think the last chord might be better missed off from the first section, before the second part comes in. I think there might also be a fade to the second section coming in, which I also don't think should be. The fast back to slow section is great though. And overall, it works well.

The whole "this is not the original music" complaint is just solipsism. We live in an age where music has been cut up and re-arranged and played and warped and pitch shifted that the difference a piece of music and its constituent parts is arbitrary. To declare a piece of music wrong in some way because it is not of the form you think it should have in your head is an attitude that ignores so many recent developments (see the soundtrack to moulin Rouge)

Besides which, the whole point of Moonlight Sonata was that it ignored the common sonata form; and it took a sledgehammer through the elaborateness of classical melodic phrasing and reduced it to its minimum requirements. It's much more gothic than classical (a fantasia rather than sonata); and was created much more of the manner and attitude that would accept it being played around with, than believing that it should be accepted as some sort of monolith within the classical canon that can't be touched or changed in any way.

Moulin Rouge, too, also vey much works. If done with better singers it would be fantastic. I kind of wish though that Gadbois had perhaps taken a number of pop hits and mashed them up to create a narrative themselves, rather than buying a narrative in wholesale with the music..... After all, that's what Luhrmann did. Surely between them, they could have done the same.

I felt what C/L had done with Life is Beautiful was very effective, in terms of musical editing and creating a story, too.

 

[Ender]

To be honest the worst Classical music versions I could think of are the Carmen techno by Elizaveta Tursynbaeva and the pop Carmen by Gabby Daleman. The rest I don’t find much jarring.

 

[ice coverage]

If I’m not mistaken, Molina was judge in Peking last week, so judging P/C ( lots of 10).

And he was surely not the only one.
Just like the Canadian judge this week who gave 3 10's to V/M alone. Luckily, the highest and lowest numbers don't count to avoid those situations.
He did a very good job this week though. V/M technical Base Value was very high, they were missing only one level (on the Dist where Tessa had her mistake) and they would have got the maximum bave value possible.

Yes, Molina of France was Judge No. 2 at Cup of China.
For P/C's FD, Molina was the only judge who gave four 10.0s.
Four judges gave two 10.0s.
Two judges gave one 10.0.
Two judges gave no 10.0s.

A Canadian was Judge No. 3 at Skate Canada International.
For V/M's FD, the Canadian was one of five judges who gave three 10.0s.
One judge gave two 10.0s.
One judge gave one 10.0.
Two judges gave no 10.0s.

ETA:

Sorry, I should have included the NHK data:

A Canadian was Judge No. 5 at NHK.
For V/M's FD, the Canadian was the only judge who gave three 10.00s.
One judge gave two 10.00s.
One judge gave one 10.0.
Six judges gave no 10.0s.​

 

[rain]

I wonder, if Canada does win the Team Gold (I think it's getting away from us a bit-I'd say Russia is the favourite now), if that will really free up V/M to just go for it and throw caution to the wind and just be totally in the moment.

I thought V/M looked just a little tight here. They skated with more abandon at Skate Canada. I want to see abandon again at the Olympics. I think when they get comfortable hitting the levels it will come. I think hitting the levels is what they're focused on right now.

As for team gold, I think Russia is by far the favourite. They have the advantage in mens and ladies at this point; pairs is a bit of a toss-up and dance is in Canada's favour.

 

[rain]

I must say for the first time V/M's Moulin Rouge has given me chills, so they are getting there. The lifts, recycled as they may be, are second to none.

The Gadbois team has made excellent decisions re H/D in my opinion. The want to challenge the Shibs, so they have to do something that the Americans can't, which is selling that sexy, sensual vibe. The first part of the FD is especially brilliant, they almost become that rhythm and music. Well done on the second place, hope they make it to the final.

I'd go so far as to say that H/D were going nowhere before heading to Montreal. They were stuck in the doldrums as sort of a 3-4 best team in the U.S. let alone the world. Now people are talking about them having a genuine shot at a national title (I agree), and being right in the mix for an Olympic bronze medal. Since moving to Montreal this team now has an identity and as you say, their technical skills are excellent (if they can just avoid disasters). There is no doubt in my mind that this team would have been world bronze medallists last year but for the catastrophic fall.

I think once V/M retire, this is the team that can really challenge the French. And maybe W/P if they can get some sense of their identity back and work on their speed.

 

[4everchan]

I'm not sure on the first edit of Moonlight Sonata- I think the last chord might be better missed off from the first section, before the second part comes in. I think there might also be a fade to the second section coming in, which I also don't think should be. The fast back to slow section is great though. And overall, it works well.

The whole "this is not the original music" complaint is just solipsism. We live in an age where music has been cut up and re-arranged and played and warped and pitch shifted that the difference a piece of music and its constituent parts is arbitrary. To declare a piece of music wrong in some way because it is not of the form you think it should have in your head is an attitude that ignores so many recent developments (see the soundtrack to moulin Rouge)

Besides which, the whole point of Moonlight Sonata was that it ignored the common sonata form; and it took a sledgehammer through the elaborateness of classical melodic phrasing and reduced it to its minimum requirements. It's much more gothic than classical (a fantasia rather than sonata); and was created much more of the manner and attitude that would accept it being played around with, than believing that it should be accepted as some sort of monolith within the classical canon that can't be touched or changed in any way.

Moulin Rouge, too, also vey much works. If done with better singers it would be fantastic. I kind of wish though that Gadbois had perhaps taken a number of pop hits and mashed them up to create a narrative themselves, rather than buying a narrative in wholesale with the music..... After all, that's what Luhrmann did. Surely between them, they could have done the same.

I felt what C/L had done with Life is Beautiful was very effective, in terms of musical editing and creating a story, too.

let me address only a couple points

first bolded part : as a figure skating fan, I hear "weird" transformation of music all the time... cuts, like for instance SinKats going from the first mvt of Rach 2 into the Vocalise into the 3rd mvt of Rach 2... all in 4 minutes... it's not what I am talking about. Musicians who like figure skating are USED to this... however, there are cuts that are less effective than others... again, if the choreography works well and these cuts serve the skating (for instance Osmond repeated phrase in La Bohème -she really needed the extra time to get to her jump) it's fine... but when the cut is not good and the choreo is not good, as it misses the build up in the music, it's not solipsism at all... it's just about common sense... common musical sense.

that is not true... Beethoven indeed wrote sonatas in very classical form all the way through opus 27. There are two sonatas in that set, both depart from the traditional classical style in 4 movements seen in opus 2 or 7 for instance..... Here Beethoven is exploring with previous models (the fantasia from the BAROQUE) which were more on an improvised nature... however, they are NOT improvisations and their phrasing is standard. What is not usual here is the overall architecture : in both sonatas, the first movement is the more intimate one while. Then other movements are "attaca" so attached to one another (there are 4 in 27-1, 3 in in moonlight) as if the music keeps going. There are many examples of Fantasias in classical style (haydn C major, Mozart d minor, Schubert Wanderer) that could have inspired Beethoven. What is different in here, is that he is bringing the classical sonata to the future era (romantic) using a baroque architecture.

Beethoven doesn't allow the performer to "play around with it" ... the score is marked very precisely... HE PLAYED with the form... but what he conceived is FINAL... There is not more freedom in this Sonata for a performer than any of the other 31... it's not John Cage... it's not chance music.... Every note has its place. Every chord is meaningful in the harmony, even more so than is some other sonatas. Oh.. and not sure what you mean by Gothic music.. but here is an example... Now, if a team would skate on such music, it would be VERY cool.

Whether or not skaters take bits and pieces of it is not what is offensive for musicians... it's simply when these bits and pieces do not work together and on top of that, do not improve the choreography....

 

[viennaskater]

For some reason, I really REALLY like the female announcer, but I really REALLY despise the male announcer. Everything she says is like poetry, and everything he says makes me cringe for some reason.

Cos he sounds like a bad sales advertisement.