2019-20 U.S. Ladies Figure Skating

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What's the US's attitude towards silver or bronze?

Say if one of your ladies nabbed silver or bronze in 2022 do they stand to make good sponsorship money from it?

Or does it need to be gold to glitter?

Kristi Yamaguchi got the big Olympic gold, and that resulted in zero major sponsorships. Sarah Hughes also won a gold medal, but I remember she felt annoyed that she went to Yale and no one recognized her as the Olympic champion.

And then you have Nathan Chen who had a disappointing Olympic placement, and yet every night he takes a bath in tub of gold bars, gems, and cash. Who knows what goes on in the mind of corporate powers that be.

 

[princessalica]

Also, this has nothing to do with Alysa, but who was the girl in the senior nationals sp wearing Samantha Cesario’s Tania Bass-designed dress?

I think you mean Rena ikineshi. I’m sure I butchered that spelling.

 

[Mathman]

What's the US's attitude towards silver or bronze?

Say if one of your ladies nabbed silver or bronze in 2022 do they stand to make good sponsorship money from it?

Or does it need to be gold to glitter?

That is an interesting question. Michelle Kwan won silver and bronze but not Olympic gold. She made millions in commercial endorsements, appearance fees, etc. She was voted the most popular woman athlete in America over and over. I am pretty sure that her contract with General Motors was for a million dollars (over three years?), her Disney contract was reported to be for a million dollars a year, she had a big deal with Coca-Cola (which left Coke holding the bag in 2006 with a bunch of Michelle Kwan-labeled pop bottles), etc., etc. Not to mention that in her peak years the USFSA gave her $US 900,000 a year to represent U.S. Figure Skating, to participate in ABC TV cheesefests, etc.

In the U.S. I think it depends on the public personality of the star as much as the medals. Mohammud Ali won everything in boxing and was perhaps the most admired U.S. athlete of all time, but he got only one small endorsement in his whole life (he pitched a roach trap for killing insects).

Janet Lynn never won a world or Olympic championship, but when she turned pro in 1973 she became the highest-paid female athlete in the world with a 1.5 million dollar contract with Ice Capades. (And that was back in the day when 1.5 million was some money.)

Actually, I can imagine scenarios where any of Bradie, Mariah, or Alysa might somehow grab the attention of the American public and be able to cash in.

My impression is that in some other countries, Russia for instance, the attitude is more, there are two kinds of athletes -- the gold medalist and the losers. Although I think that Julia Lipnitskaia remains popular, and also Evgenia Medvedeva and quite a few others.

Edit: On the other hand, Dorothy Hamill famously said of her Olympic experience in 1976, "It was either win the gold medal and become a millionaire, or finish second and go back to my job as a secretary in Chicago."

 

[KatGrace1925]

Kristi Yamaguchi got the big Olympic gold, and that resulted in zero major sponsorships. Sarah Hughes also won a gold medal, but I remember she felt annoyed that she went to Yale and no one recognized her as the Olympic champion.

And then you have Nathan Chen who had a disappointing Olympic placement, and yet every night he takes a bath in tub of gold bars, gems, and cash. Who knows what goes on in the mind of corporate powers that be.

True Michelle Kwan had more sponsorships than Tara and Sarah despite losing to them at the olympics. Michelle Kwan is still more known. It's probably more about the agent you get and how they market you than 100% being about the gold medal.

 

[lesnar001]

In the U.S. I think it depends on the public personality of star as much as the medals. Mohammud Ali won everything in boxing and was perhaps the most admired U.S. athlete of all time, but he got only one small endorsement in his whole life (he pitched a roach trap for killing insects).

I remember him doing a commercial for BRUT back in the 1970's.
"Float like a butterfly - Sting like a bee. The great smell of BRUT and the punch of Ali!"

 

[KatGrace1925]

Actually, I can imagine scenarios where any of Bradie, Mariah, or Alysa might somehow grab the attention of the American public and be able to cash in.

Last olympics Bradie was our number one but didn't really get much in terms of endorsements, I always wondered why. It seemed like maybe her coming "out of nowhere" to win the title was related in my opinion because previous seasons she was never on anyones list for the olympics. Mirai was the one of the ladies who got some promo after getting to the olympics when she was previously not selected despite her 3rd place finish. But the real star in figure skating last olympics was Adam Rippon and he wasn't ever in medal contention.

 

[gkelly]

To me, that is the crux of the whole thing.

What is more important, getting the maximum number of medals and spots at Worlds/Olympics, or running a competition in which every athlete is treated fairly and equally.

tl;dr: Nationals as a competition on its own merits probably treats the participants more fairly in terms of competition judging if the world team selection is NOT determined strictly by Nationals results.


There are two different "competitions" that happen during the national championships.

One is the actual national championships, which determines the national champion in each discipline, and also silver, bronze, pewter medalists and all the other places below that.

The other is selection for international assignments.

There is nothing inherent in the process of holding a national competition called "championships" that requires assignments to Worlds or other events to strictly follow the order of finish at that event. Historically the US had typically done so, with occasional exceptions for injured world medalists.

At a certain point they wrote it into their rules that the national champion would always be assigned to Worlds if eligible. They specifically did not write that in for Olympic selections for legal reasons having to do with rights to the championships, and they also did not write in that subsequent places on the world team would automatically be assigned according to order of finish at Nationals, although at first they did continue to usually follow those results.

Then they decided to write new rules that allowed for more strategic team selection. The new rules specified several tiers of past results to be considered, with Nationals results being the last and most important but not sole deciding factors.

Some other countries have always used a process more like the current US procedure; others have tended to follow national results more closely; others have at least sometimes used the results of Europeans/Four Continents or domestic post-Nationals skateoffs to determine world teams, which the US has never done but theoretically could.

Although it might be considered more "fair" to publish in advance strict weightings for each of these results to be considered, so that skaters would know going into Nationals exactly where they needed to place, whom they needed to place ahead of, or what scores they needed to earn to be selected for the world team, a strictly numerical formula will often miss subtleties such as extenuating circumstances (injuries, etc.) and the strength of the field in which each considered result was earned, etc., so there's no guarantee that such a formula would do a better job of fielding a process that also includes human discretion.

However, if a numerical formula is as simple as "The top placing skaters at Nationals will go to Worlds, assuming they are eligible to compete there, in order of finish, with no other considerations" puts the decisions about world team selection solely in the hands of the judges and tech panels at Nationals. That means they would have on their minds not only how the skaters are actually skating on that day, but also which skaters they "want" to send on to Worlds. Which would tempt judges to try to fudge the Nationals results in order to get the skaters considered the best bet for Worlds into the top slots, thus making Nationals itself less of a fair competition.

Suppose you're a less decorated skater who may not be old enough for Worlds, by nationality are not eligible to represent the US this year or if not a citizen not eligible to represent the US now or for years to come, or have not earned necessary minimum tech scores perhaps because you had never yet earned or been able to take advantage of international assignments or never managed to skate well enough when you were sent out. Or maybe you do have the minimum scores but just barely and there are three or more other skaters who have much stronger resumes than you do.

If you have a breakout performance at Nationals, would you prefer/consider it more fair to be scored accurately on what you do and earn a national title or silver or bronze medal and then get passed over for Worlds, or to be intentionally held down in the scoring so that a more favored skater (including one who can go to Worlds if you're not eligible) can take the title/other medal along with a world team spot that automatically goes with it?

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I think the current system is pretty fair, more or less. Skaters do have a rough idea of how the different events are weighed. Karen's selection in 2018, and Vincent's now, are no surprise and consistent with what we'd expect if selection is done by "body of work." We probably have some flexibility with the men, where maybe one spot could go to a total surprise athlete and we'd still have a chance to keep three, but with the women the USFSA can't take any chances with the strength of the international field. Our two best, performing their very best, would get back three spots by just a hair. And like gkelly and MM indicated, that improves the integrity of the Nationals judging to where the panel doesn't have to manipulate results to get a certain team picked.

 

[Mathman]

^ To me the most important thing is the integrity of the National Championship. If we have to shape the procedure for selection to the Worlds team in such a way that judges will be less tempted to judge with bias and deceit, then that is what we must do.

The second most important thing to me is that U.S. Nationals should retain its historical prestige as the number one U.S. figure skating competition in America. What I would not want to see develop is a situation where top skaters would blow off Nationals and pay attention only to major international events like the Grand Prix, 4 Continents and Worlds.

These two considerations push in opposite directions, so I guess I am content with a system that regards placement at Nationals to be very important, but not the sole determinate of international assignments.

Personally, I give only third place to the goal of sending the skaters who "the committee" thinks are the most likely to bring home the bacon internationally. (I realize that this hierarchy of goals puts me in a very small minority among fans. )

 

[moonvine]

That is an interesting question. Michelle Kwan won silver and bronze but not Olympic gold. She made millions is commercial endorsements, appearance fees, etc. She was voted the most popular woman athlete in America over and over. I am pretty sure that her contract with General Motors was for a million dollars (over three years?), her Disney contract was reported to be for a million dollars a year, she had a big deal with Coca-Cola (which left Coke holding the bag in 2006 with a bunch of Michelle Kwan-labeled pop bottles), etc., etc. Not to mention that in her peak years the USFSA gave her $US 900,000 a year to represent U.S. Figure Skating, to participate in ABC TV cheesefests, etc.

In the U.S. I think it depends on the public personality of star as much as the medals. Mohammud Ali won everything in boxing and was perhaps the most admired U.S. athlete of all time, but he got only one small endorsement in his whole life (he pitched a roach trap for killing insects).

Janet Lynn never won a world or Olympic championship, but when she turned pro in 1973 she became the highest-paid female athlete in the world with a 1.5 million dollar contract with Ice Capades. (And that was back in the day day when 1.5 million was some money.)

Actually, I can imagine scenarios where any of Bradie, Mariah, or Alysa might somehow grab the attention of the American public and be able to cash in.

My impression is that in some other countries, Russia for instance, the attitude is more, there are two kinds of athletes -- the gold medalist and the losers. Although I think that Julia Lipnitskaia remains popular, and also Evgenia Medvedeva and quite a few others.

Edit: On the other hand, Dorothy Hamill famously said of her Olympic experience in 1976, "It was either win the gold medal and become a millionaire, or finish second and go back to my job as a secretary in Chicago."

Eteri’s girls have said, basically “Winner is first place. Everyone else is a loser.” I think that is so sad.

 

[TontoK]

^ To me the most important thing is the integrity of the National Championship. If we have to shape the procedure for selection to the Worlds team in such a way that judges will be less tempted to judge with bias and deceit, then that is what we must do.

The second most important thing to me is that U.S. Nationals should retain its historical prestige as the number one U.S. figure skating competition in America. What I would not want to see develop is a situation where top skaters would blow off Nationals and pay attention only to major international events like the Grand Prix, 4 Continents and Worlds.

These two considerations push in opposite directions, so I guess I am content with a system that regards placement at Nationals to be very important, but not the sole determinate of international assignments.

Personally, I give only third place to the goal of sending the skaters who "the committee" thinks are the most likely to bring home the bacon internationally. (I realize that this hierarchy of goals puts me in a very small minority among fans. )

This is the most important consideration, no caveats needed. Our athletes, from the defending World Champion to the guy/lady who just sneaked in though the qualifying, have a right to expect that their performances will be judged without bias or favor. And I'm talking about their performances ON THE DAY. No reputation bonus, no first-timer suppression of scores. Accurate judging.

I agree that the National Championships should retain its cachet. The event should have real meaning and relevance, and every aspiring USA Team member should have some serious skin in the game.

The bring-home-the-bacon argument has no meaning to me.

 

[Mathman]

True Michelle Kwan had more sponsorships than Tara and Sarah despite losing to them at the olympics. Michelle Kwan is still more known. It's probably more about the agent you get and how they market you than 100% being about the gold medal.

Michelle had a dandy! Here is Phil Hersh's remembrance of the late Shep Goldberg.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/spor...o-kwan-and-mensch-to-all-20141111-column.html

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I agree that the National Championships should retain its cachet. The event should have real meaning and relevance, and every aspiring USA Team member should have some serious skin in the game.

It's also important to note that medals and worlds spots aren't the only prizes available. Even for bubble athletes who don't make the World/Olympic teams, there are funding opportunities and international assignments like 4CC, GPs, and Senior Bs available to high finishers. So I think everyone is adequately motivated, and feels a great deal of pressure, to perform well at Nationals.

 

[beachmouse]

Last olympics Bradie was our number one but didn't really get much in terms of endorsements, I always wondered why. It seemed like maybe her coming "out of nowhere" to win the title was related in my opinion because previous seasons she was never on anyones list for the olympics. Mirai was the one of the ladies who got some promo after getting to the olympics when she was previously not selected despite her 3rd place finish. But the real star in figure skating last olympics was Adam Rippon and he wasn't ever in medal contention.

Despite the 'Dan and Dave' fiasco- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_&_Dave - sponsors still like to line up their most desired Olympic faces 12-18 months out so they have time to build a good promotional campaign around them. It's why you'll often see the best NCAA level swimmers or runners who also have a good World Championships level performance portfolio will go pro the year before the Olympics, even if they've got eligibility years left, rather than in the actual Olympic year.

 

[Mathman]

It's also important to note that medals and worlds spots aren't the only prizes available. Even for bubble athletes who don't make the World/Olympic teams, there are funding opportunities and international assignments like 4CC, GPs, and Senior Bs available to high finishers. So I think everyone is adequately motivated, and feels a great deal of pressure, to perform well at Nationals.

What I wish would happen is that skaters would regard winning the National Championship as its own reward.

If it lands you a trip to Four Continents, or a chance to endorse a product, or an appearance on a late-night talk show -- well, that's OK. too. But I would hope that winning the big one would provide some sort of motivation all by itself.

 

[Makemi]

What I wish would happen is that skaters would regard winning the National Championship as its own reward.

If it lands you a trip to Four Continents, or a chance to endorse a product, or an appearance on a late-night talk show -- well, that's OK. too. But I would hope that winning the big one would provide some sort of motivation all by itself.

Judging by the performances in all disciplines at Nationals this year, I would say they already do. There is something about the lights and glory of Nationals ice that really seems to bring out the best of the skaters. And the pressure that comes with defending the national title is no joke. I will be re-watching Men and Ladies free skates on repeat for a while, just a fantastic competition. In fact so many of my favorite performances over the years have come at Nationals.

As for endorsements, I feel like that is really more dependent on 1) skater's persona and charisma (i.e. marketability) and 2) getting a good agent. Gold is great but completely unnecessary. Aside from the aforementioned Michelle Kwan, Adam Rippon, and Mirai we also have Ashley Wagner who had several sponsorships and commercials (the Toyota one will forever be one of my favorites) and the Shibutanis. Vincent Zhou also got sponsorship from the Kinoshita group (although that was mostly because of Mie Hamada). Agents that can connect skaters to Japanese ice shows is especially lucrative, Mariah has been to a few already and so has Tomoki.

This is where I feel Bradie is at a disadvantage. Aside from just being really good and one of US's top skaters who can get consistent international results, I feel she doesn't have the charisma or marketability that would make her attractive to sponsors.

 

[Skater Boy]

Judging by the performances in all disciplines at Nationals this year, I would say they already do. There is something about the lights and glory of Nationals ice that really seems to bring out the best of the skaters. And the pressure that comes with defending the national title is no joke. I will be re-watching Men and Ladies free skates on repeat for a while, just a fantastic competition. In fact so many of my favorite performances over the years have come at Nationals.

As for endorsements, I feel like that is really more dependent on 1) skater's persona and charisma (i.e. marketability) and 2) getting a good agent. Gold is great but completely unnecessary. Aside from the aforementioned Michelle Kwan, Adam Rippon, and Mirai we also have Ashley Wagner who had several sponsorships and commercials (the Toyota one will forever be one of my favorites) and the Shibutanis. Vincent Zhou also got sponsorship from the Kinoshita group (although that was mostly because of Mie Hamada). Agents that can connect skaters to Japanese ice shows is especially lucrative, Mariah has been to a few already and so has Tomoki.

This is where I feel Bradie is at a disadvantage. Aside from just being really good and one of US's top skaters who can get consistent international results, I feel she doesn't have the charisma or marketability that would make her attractive to sponsors.

I know Bradie is a person and someone's child. But yes, not everyone has the same charisma or magic. As good and solid as she is I don't think she comes off as marketable as some but I wish her well. She's pretty and a great skater but she's ot special if that makes sense. She just doesn't have that magic and not everyone can have that magic or e special or there would be no one special. Sadly in general the skaters in the US right now while top level skaters and in Natha's situation world fave. Yes, they will get some endorsemens and well paid shows but a lot of them just don't have that magic. Jason scores well apparently with young girls but in my marketing class eh did not score well for like atheltic gear or male hygeine products or fashion. Some have it and some don't. That doesn't mean they don't have endorsements but they just don't have the pizzazz of some other athletes.

 

[StitchMonkey]

What's the US's attitude towards silver or bronze?

Say if one of your ladies nabbed silver or bronze in 2022 do they stand to make good sponsorship money from it?

Or does it need to be gold to glitter?

If we are being honest, American is kinda shallow.

Honesty the answer is "depends on how attractive/marketable they are"

A good looking and charming lady who nabs the silver/bronze will likely have more success in the USA than a less marketable lady winning gold.

The USA is not opposed to supporting silver/bronze medalist. It is not seen as a failure or "why weren't you better?" type thing. it is still a medal and still awesome, just not as awesome. But for the general population to care much past the National Anthem, the person wearing the medal has to capture attention too. Usually with some mix of personality and looks. A medal is not enough to go that far anymore. There is always a more charming medalist.

 

[Tavi...]

I know Bradie is a person and someone's child. But yes, not everyone has the same charisma or magic. As good and solid as she is I don't think she comes off as marketable as some but I wish her well. She's pretty and a great skater but she's ot special if that makes sense. She just doesn't have that magic and not everyone can have that magic or e special or there would be no one special. Sadly in general the skaters in the US right now while top level skaters and in Natha's situation world fave. Yes, they will get some endorsemens and well paid shows but a lot of them just don't have that magic. Jason scores well apparently with young girls but in my marketing class eh did not score well for like atheltic gear or male hygeine products or fashion. Some have it and some don't. That doesn't mean they don't have endorsements but they just don't have the pizzazz of some other athletes.

First, whether someone has “magic” or “pizazz” is obviously subjective. Second, why are you commenting about Jason and Nathan in the ladies thread? Third, what do you mean by saying that “Jason scores well apparently with young girls but in my marketing class eh did not score well for like athletic gear or male hygiene products or fashion”? Did you conduct studies of Jason’s or Nathan’s or Bradie’s marketability to various demographic groups or did you read studies conducted by others (and if so, how recent are they), or are you just talking off the top of your head?

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

What I wish would happen is that skaters would regard winning the National Championship as its own reward.

If it lands you a trip to Four Continents, or a chance to endorse a product, or an appearance on a late-night talk show -- well, that's OK. too. But I would hope that winning the big one would provide some sort of motivation all by itself.

I think it's always been the case that winning the National title has great importance. But if we're being honest, only three women this season had any chance at the title. The odds for anyone else winning were close to, or at, 0%. Someone like a Courtney Hicks is probably more motivated to do well in order to earn those consolation prizes rather than winning gold.