2019 Four Continents: Ice Dance Pregame Chat

[chuckm]

Well they haven't had to face Weaver/Poje yet, who are a stronger team than those they faced at GPF and Nationals. Hubbell/Donohue's RD imo, is a shadow of W/P's 2014 FD with the same music. Many people underestimated Weaver/Poje for Nationals because they didn't compete on the GP, even though they had been alternating performing their RD and FD on the TTYCT. They pretty much got all their KP's and some level 4 step sequences at Nats. I'd say they have a very good shot at their third 4CC title, after they claimed their third Nationals title.

The problem is W/P haven't competed since September, and their one competition was Autumn Classic, on home ice, where they faced Smart / Diaz and Wang / Liu, hardly top tier competitors. Doing their programs on the tour is no substitute for competing against their top rivals because exhibitions aren't judged. OTOH, H/B have been facing top competition all season and the ISU judges have given them high scores.

Of course W/P won Nationals---they were 2018 World medalists, and G/P have had a disappointing season. No surprise there, and of course Nationals judges and tech teams tend to view their star performers with rose-colored glasses, hence the P/C level scores. But it's ISU judges and techs at 4CC and Worlds. While both Canada and the US will have ice dance judges at 4CC, neither country will be on the Worlds ice dance judging panel. Canada will have a judge for Men and Pairs, and the US only for Ladies.

Given the judges chosen for ice dance (AUS BUL CHN FRA GER HUN ISR JPN POL KOR RUS TUR UKR) there well may be a Russian dance team on the Worlds podium.

 

[readernick]

The problem is W/P haven't competed since September, and their one competition was Autumn Classic, on home ice, where they faced Smart / Diaz and Wang / Liu, hardly top tier competitors. Doing their programs on the tour is no substitute for competing against their top rivals because exhibitions aren't judged. OTOH, H/B have been facing top competition all season and the ISU judges have given them high scores.

Of course W/P won Nationals---they were 2018 World medalists, and G/P have had a disappointing season. No surprise there, and of course Nationals judges and tech teams tend to view their star performers with rose-colored glasses, hence the P/C level scores. But it's ISU judges and techs at 4CC and Worlds. While both Canada and the US will have ice dance judges at 4CC, neither country will be on the Worlds ice dance judging panel. Canada will have a judge for Men and Pairs, and the US only for Ladies.

Given the judges chosen for ice dance (AUS BUL CHN FRA GER HUN ISR JPN POL KOR RUS TUR UKR) there well may be a Russian dance team on the Worlds podium.

Based on the way the top two Russian teams have been judged this season, I agree. There will be a Russian team on the podium. Stepanova and Bukin have great programs but their basic skating (especially hers) isn’t very good. You would not know that by looking at a protocol. Sinitsina/ katsalapov are great skaters and their RD is great but the FD is boring and they are error prone. But, you would never guess based on the scores. The Russian federation must really be pushing hard. H/D are the best bet to win 4CC and be on the world’s podium of all the North Americans. I don’t like their programs or W/P’s programs ( sorry, I know I in the minority there). But, the Canadian teams and American teams are all super talented so I will be happy if any of them win 4CC. We will see who has the skate of the competition G/P and C/B will both steal the audiences hearts but maybe not the judges.

 

[lauravvv]

If Piper and Paul nail the RD there is no reason they couldn't fight for silver or even gold with their free dance. It is better than either H/D's or W/P's this year.

Unfortunately, even though programs matter, they are not the only thing that matters. That's one of the main reasons why Hubbell/Donohue have been winning. Currently they have the best skating skills after P/C. G/P's skating skills are not on that level yet, or on the level of W/P and a team like Sinitsina/Katsalapov if we are looking beyond the teams that will be competing at 4CC.

I prefer G/P's to W/P's as well, and they already beat them once in the free. I love C/B, and their FD is so energetic and so fun, but I'm not sure their free dance quite holds a candle to G/P. I wouldn't be surprised if G/P won the FD, or at least came pretty close to it.

Well, I am not sure that G/P beating W/P in the FD would have happened or will happen internationally. It wouldn't be the first time when Gilles/Poirier are much closer to Weaver/Poje at Nationals than they later end up being internationally. The Canadian Federation and judges seem to really love G/P, but it has not been translating into international scores.

Also, read my response to Lester above.

 

[Bcash]

I’m always of the view that G/P are a “concept” team. Often cool concepts and ideas for programs and choreographic details, but lacking the skating skills and physical amplitude(esp. G) to really make the program truly come alive. Always make the effort kind of visible. I don’t know if international judges view them the same way.

 

[Matt K]

H/D doesn’t do it for me either, I think certain things they do well, but they are not better than the rest, their programs this year are not great so that doesn’t help imo...I think the French team is better than the rest (P/C). They are the Virtue/Moir and Davis/White of their time. To be honest I think if P/C had better programs during the last Olympic cycle they would have won gold.

P/C already HAD the "better programs" during the last Olympic cycle. Especially at the Olympics, and their FD of course, Moonlight Sonata. If they had any other program, they would have lost gold by way more. I don't know what your intention is to put D/W there unless it is to imply that P/C will become forgotten soon or something. P/C already surpassed D/W long ago, IMO, and it will be a question of what P/C can bring to the 2022 Games. I want to see maturity and growth in these 4 years. Not sleeping through their programs because the rest of the field hasn't caught up.

 

[chuckm]

I’m always of the view that G/P are a “concept” team. Often cool concepts and ideas for programs and choreographic details, but lacking the skating skills and physical amplitude(esp. G) to really make the program truly come alive. Always make the effort kind of visible. I don’t know if international judges view them the same way.

Sometimes I've noticed that one or the other of them gets so immersed in projecting the "character" they've created that he/she/they make technical mistakes. In Ice Dance, one small slip-up can mean disaster, which is what happened to them at Skate Canada.

 

[1904sk8]

Since this has lowkey just become a more general ice dance chat I was wondering how do you think Madi H skating skills compare to Gabi P? Not saying either isn't amazing (because they both are great) just wondering bc in some places I have read that MH is the strongest female ice dancer but over the last few seasons GP has improved so much and I think maybe surpassed MH. Opinions?

 

[Bcash]

As with many here, I think H/D’s FD is a misjudgement and a step back. But they are skating with confidence and commitment, and they are very well trained, which for a team of their abilities is probably enough to keep their standing (as reigning world silver medalists).

C/B’s FD as performed at US Nationals is more interesting and suits them well. I don’t mind seeing an “upset” by them even though I like H/D a lot.

W/P still have the respect of the judges and will probably be among the top 3 here with clean skates (their twizzles still look the most clunky of all the top teams though).

 

[Bcash]

Since this has lowkey just become a more general ice dance chat I was wondering how do you think Madi H skating skills compare to Gabi P? Not saying either isn't amazing (because they both are great) just wondering bc in some places I have read that MH is the strongest female ice dancer but over the last few seasons GP has improved so much and I think maybe surpassed MH. Opinions?

It’s hard to compare. I’d just say in terms of edge quality both are stronger than their close competitors (Russians, Canadians, fellow Americans).

 

[GF2445]

I must say, I am impressed by the progress Australia's top two dance teams have made this season, compared to last.
It's an all around improvement. I hope they will be able to skate well next week.

 

[LadyB]

I'm super excited for this event, it's almost like a mini World's. A bit of dress rehearsal with more serious challengers than at Europeans. H/D don't do it for me (they hardly ever do) and I must admit, I haven't seen C/B yet. WeaPos have a spectacular tango, but I'm not thrilled by their FD. Piper & Paul have their little RD struggles, which I hope they're sorting out at the mo, but their FD is totally out of this world for me this season. So special!
In my heart, I want Piper & Paul to win, but I know, this is not going to happen. So I want them to be placed as high as possible. I much prefer WeaPos over H/D, but that's not easy either. Anyway, I've got a feeling, we could be in for a treat!

 

[jersey1302]

Im very excited to see how the Canadian and American ice dancers stack up against each other. I said in my FreeSkate youtube recap of the US, Canadian and Euros, that the fight for silver on the world podium is going to be so so close between Weaver/Poje, Hubbell and Donohue and Stepanova and Bukin.. and bronze outside chance I think for the Italians, Sinitsina and Katsalapov and Gilles and Poirier. So to see the US vs Canada in this 4CC Ice Dance is going to be real fun. I really am curious to see how the international judges score W/P RD compared to how the French were scored at Euros. I feel W/P have the best RD in the world this year. I absolutely love it. It was very very highly scored at nationals but.. its nationals and has not been in front of international judges yet.

 

[BillNeal]

Given the judges chosen for ice dance (AUS BUL CHN FRA GER HUN ISR JPN POL KOR RUS TUR UKR) there well may be a Russian dance team on the Worlds podium.

It could happen but history is not on their side though. Since 2009, the only year that there hasn't been two or more NA teams on the podium is 2014 (when W/P earned silver) and the only year when a Russian dance team was on the podium was 2013 (when B/S earned bronze). Yes, D/W and V/M were present for many of those years but the other N/A teams have also prevented any of the Russian teams from getting on the podium during the last quad. I'm not sure which countries the judging panels were composed of for the entire past decade but you'd think that chances are, there was a similar composition of judges in at least one of those years since 2009.

Not only do the Russians have to contend with H/D, W/P for the Worlds podium but also G/F, given that both S/K and S/B lost to G/F at Euros and GPF, respectively. C/B have only been back on the ice recently and G/P still have work to do to gain the judges recognition, but these two teams could very well challenge for bronze at Worlds. The two top Russian teams have improved this year but S/B's RD is noticeably weaker than many of the top teams while Nikita is still having twizzle disasters. Also, Euros consist of a panel of all European judges, while 4CC has both European and 4CC judges. Not to the degree of Nationals but the scores from Euros are also inflated. We'll see how the scores go for 4CCs. In a non-Olympic year of the past two quads, the 4CC champion has either won or at least got on the podium at Worlds.

 

[labgoat]

I must say, I am impressed by the progress Australia's top two dance teams have made this season, compared to last.
It's an all around improvement. I hope they will be able to skate well next week.

I will root for these two teams. I'm glad they have 4CC to be able to shine.

 

[TontoK]

This is the discipline I'm most interested in at 4CC. The results will tell a lot about what the international judges think heading into World's.

I'm a long-time H/D fan who isn't over-the-moon about the program this year, but the judges seem to see something I don't - no real surprise there, I'm just a skating fan without a deep understanding of how dance is judged. I just know what I like.

And what I like is this: C/B free dance. Love it.

As for our friends north of the border - there is no ambiguity. G/P is my favorite Canadian team this year. No contest.

Which means, oddly, that my favorite Americans and favorite Canadians are teams I haven't liked all that much in prior seasons.

 

[Ice Dance]

It was very very highly scored at nationals but.. its nationals and has not been in front of international judges yet.

Weaver & Poje skated both their RD and FD in the early fall at the Autumn Classic in front of international judges. Protocol for the RD was two level 2s for the pattern, a level 4 for the lift, a 3 & 4 for the twizzles, 2 for the footwork. Nothing to write home about but not bad for an early debut this particular season. It's now been a long time since the Autumn Classic. W&P have a great RD, IMO. But we will have to see how much they can bump those levels up internationally at 4CCs and how the rest of the competitors do as well. Should be fun.

The key, for everyone, this season is to make it "look" easy. Established teams are getting away with tanking the levels if they look good. Muck an element up to the point at which it looks like a mistake, though, and your GOE scores go kerthunk. That, combined with the fact that this field includes teams #2, #3, and #5, #6 from last years worlds . . . makes this event feel unpredictable to me.

 

[NoNameFace]

I don't know if I'm quite ready for Four Continents drama yet, but that being said - I think this is Hubbell/Donohue's to lose. I prefer the other teams' programs but I thought at both the GPF and Nationals that H/D could be pushed out of the top, and both times I've been wrong. They're getting the GOE and PCS they need this year.

Based on judges' preference - yes, I agree, at the same time I feel that it is still Chock/Bates and Weaver/Poje's to win. Who knows what will happen and whose momentum is going to shift up or down - both C/B & W/P enter the second half of the season with maybe blank card regarding 'season scoring reputation', but with more competitive fire, energy, freshness to their material I feel. There are a lot of 'ifs' though - I think that to have a shot for a win, both teams mentioned have to be pretty much clean on levels all-around, ESPECIALLY in RD which may make a difference in my opinion as they could not have GOE cushion given in the same amount as Hubbell/Donohue; PCS is a lost case for me already (pretty much as GOE after changes...), especially Composition/Choreography and Interpretation/Timing components being awarded too generously for programs' design as a whole vehicle and/or performance of it.

Agree to on H/D getting GOE/PCS they need - them deserving it though is another issue. After seeing them back-to-back with Chock/Bates at Nationals, the contrast between two materials, approaches towards program/performance couldn't be more apparent for me. It will be interesting to see how chips will fall internationally.

 

[AlexRus]

Entries in order of Season Best.
In () - other best only for them who has not Season Best.

1 Madison HUBBELL / Zachary DONOHUE USA 205.35
2 Piper GILLES / Paul POIRIER CAN 201.27
3 Kaitlyn WEAVER / Andrew POJE CAN 197.27
4 Madison CHOCK / Evan BATES USA (189.01)
5 Kaitlin HAWAYEK / Jean-Luc BAKER USA 184.63
6 Shiyue WANG / Xinyu LIU CHN 167.96
7 Laurence FOURNIER BEAUDRY / Nikolaj SORENSEN CAN (164.90)
8 Misato KOMATSUBARA / Tim KOLETO JPN 154.75
9 Hong CHEN / Zhuoming SUN CHN 148.74
10 Chantelle KERRY / Andrew DODDS AUS 125.08
11 Matilda FRIEND / William BADAOUI AUS 118.39
12 Wanqi NING / Chao WANG CHN 116.89

 

[readernick]

Chock and Bates do have a SB from the mentor cup. 197.42

 

[SnowWhite]

Chock and Bates do have a SB from the mentor cup. 197.42

It's not an official SB though. Only CS, GP, JGP, Euros, 4CCs, Worlds and WTT count for SB. Senior B scores only count for tech minimums. So they aren't on the SB list yet.