Alina Zagitova announces break from figure skating competition

[Autumn Leaves]

It is very funny how this 40% number is suddenly a fact, when it actually came from TSL, who have no connection to Chrustalnii and who are often misinformed. Even the gossip-hungry Russian media never had gotten figures from the contract between Alina and her coaches.

Dave actually admitted that he loves to speak to some Russians who come to skate at the rink in Jersey, where he skates for fun. And these Russians talk and the things they say!!! Excellent source, I would say

My guess - in a recent interview Liza mentioned the number 30% (I don't remember if for coaches or federation or both), so the TSL guys probably thought "ok, Eteri is in Moscow, it is the best rink, so it must be more expensive, and they decided Alina pays 40% to Eteri.

So I would take that 40% number with a grain of salt.

 

[Tavi...]

AFAIK, Dudakov taught Alina all her triples (except 3S and 3Lo) and her combinations. They also taught Evgenia and Anna all their triples. Sasha and Alena had their triples already, but learned their quads and 3As from the group. And of course, the group are responsible for Alena and Sasha's massive jumps (they were much smaller before if you watch their competitions prior to joining the group) and consistency. The only skaters who were mildly successful before are Sasha and Kamila.

As for taking a percentage of the skaters' earnings, all Russian coaches do this. Skaters don't pay the coaches per hour like in North America. They get their lessons for free, so everyone can skate. The federation covers a base cost: lessons, rink time, coaches, costumes, travel expenses, and competitions (from Tarakanova's comments, the federation gives you a base depending on which category of the national team you're in, and if you want a more expensive costume, a famous choreographer, or a coach not funded by the federation, you have to cover the rest yourself). That is part of why you see so many young talented skaters; you do not have to come from a wealthy family to skate. In return, if the skater becomes successful and earns rewards through competition and sponsorships, they pay a percentage of that to the coaches and the federation. I would imagine this goes towards covering the lessons of younger skaters who are unsuccessful, as only very few skaters bring in earnings in comparison to all the children who get free lessons. This is also how a coach earns the majority of their income as they don't get the hourly wages like in NA. In the case of Alina's family, they are not well off at all and would not have been able to afford figure skating in NA. 40% may seem like a lot now, but she has been skating since she was 7 (?) and all her lessons, ice time, and coaching have been free. How much money does an average skater in North America spend per year? And if Alina had not been successful, her career would not have affected her family financially.

That may all be true, but don’t forget that a coach in Russia trains many, many skaters at once. So I have to think Russian coaches earn pretty good salaries based on volume.

In principle, I can see the argument for a coach /fed to get some percentage - say 10-20% - of a skater’s earnings from skating while she’s competing. But 40% is a huge percentage. In addition, if I understand correctly, this doesn’t apply only to prize or show money during a skater’s amateur career, but extends to everything a skater earns through her professional skating career - in Alina’s case, that means earnings from her endorsements and presumably her films.

Also, IMO a skater like Alina is already “paying” her coaches and her federation indirectly by increasing the reputation of Russian skaters worldwide, increasing the coach’s reputation (and the demand for the coach’s services), and by drawing interest in skating, which increases the Fed’s revenues from television deals, ticket sales, etc. So again - while I can see an argument for paying some percentage of a skater’s skating-related earnings to coach/fed for some limited period, I think the arrangement as described is not fair to the skater herself.

 

[Lechat]

I think it’s more 30% for the coaches and 13% for taxes. So a skater has to deduct 43% from the prize money.

I didn’t know for the sponsorship and the shows. So Alina has to pay 43% each time she earns money from ads and shows ?

I understand why they don’t want to let her go.

 

[pearly]

It's funny. She is still technically not an adult yet she's acting the most mature out of any of them.
As for the rest of them, they should be ashamed of themselves and their childish squabbling.

Alina is clearly happy with her decision, that is really all that matters.

I am pretty sure all skaters are under strict orders from coaches not to post or comment. But yes, Alina seems happy for the time being.

 

[Autumn Leaves]

I think it’s more 30% for the coaches and 13% for taxes. So a skater has to deduct 43% from the prize money.

I didn’t know for the sponsorship and the shows. So Alina has to pay 43% each time she earns money from ads and shows ?

I understand why they don’t want to let her go.

The truth is that nobody knows and I suppose arrangements can vary. For example, if an offer comes through your club/coach, you would be paying them. But if you get your own invitation/contract, maybe you don't. Really, these are all speculations and I don't know why we are discussing them as if they are facts. If anyone would have taken a hold of the contract between Alina and Eteri, we would have learnt from the Russian press, not from TSL.

And this isn't limited to Russia and Eteri. I remember an interview with David Wilson, where he sounded sour for not getting a share of Yuna's contract, because he and Brian made her a star. And she was paying them hourly rates.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

I think it’s more 30% for the coaches and 13% for taxes. So a skater has to deduct 43% from the prize money.

I didn’t know for the sponsorship and the shows. So Alina has to pay 43% each time she earns money from ads and shows ?

I understand why they don’t want to let her go.

Certainly not "for the coaches" but for the club or the federation.
And then, the taxes would be for her own 70% only, so 13% x 0,70, that is 9,1%. So, a total of 60,9% in the athlete's pocket, 9,1 for the State, and 30% for the club or the skating federation.

 

[Tavi...]

Certainly not "for the coaches" but for the club or the federation.
And then, the taxes would be for her own 70% only, so 13% x 0,70, that is 9,1%. So, a total of 60,9% in the athlete's pocket, 9,1 for the State, and 30% for the club or the skating federation.

If I only take home 60.9% of my earnings, my tax rate is effectively 39.1%, regardless of whether it’s my coach, my fed, or some other part of the government that ends up with the money.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

Unless you consider how much you have received from them.

 

[el henry]

The truth is that nobody knows and I suppose arrangements can vary. For example, if an offer comes through your club/coach, you would be paying them. But if you get your own invitation/contract, maybe you don't. Really, these are all speculations and I don't know why we are discussing them as if they are facts. If anyone would have taken a hold of the contract between Alina and Eteri, we would have learnt from the Russian press, not from TSL.

And this isn't limited to Russia and Eteri. I remember an interview with David Wilson, where he sounded sour for not getting a share of Yuna's contract, because he and Brian made her a star. And she was paying them hourly rates.

This would be unusual in North America today. The last coach I remember reading had a contractual percentage of skaters’ earnings was Frank Carroll. And choreographers never had a percentage

As far as I know, all coaches in NA charge hourly rates and none take a “cut” of their skaters’ earnings.

 

[Mishaminion]

I am pretty sure all skaters are under strict orders from coaches not to post or comment. But yes, Alina seems happy for the time being.

It is a pity the coaches (and others) can't take their own advice and stop posting and commenting about each other.

So much silly and unnecessary drama just because Alina wants to take a break from competing.

 

[colormyworld240]

That may all be true, but don’t forget that a coach in Russia trains many, many skaters at once. So I have to think Russian coaches earn pretty good salaries based on volume.

In principle, I can see the argument for a coach /fed to get some percentage - say 10-20% - of a skater’s earnings from skating while she’s competing. But 40% is a huge percentage. In addition, if I understand correctly, this doesn’t apply only to prize or show money during a skater’s amateur career, but extends to everything a skater earns through her professional skating career - in Alina’s case, that means earnings from her endorsements and presumably her films.

Also, IMO a skater like Alina is already “paying” her coaches and her federation indirectly by increasing the reputation of Russian skaters worldwide, increasing the coach’s reputation (and the demand for the coach’s services), and by drawing interest in skating, which increases the Fed’s revenues from television deals, ticket sales, etc. So again - while I can see an argument for paying some percentage of a skater’s skating-related earnings to coach/fed for some limited period, I think the arrangement as described is not fair to the skater herself.

Eteri has many successful students now but this was only for the last few years. There was a time when none of her students had any earnings and she was still coaching like she is now. There was no guarantee that Alina would be Olympic champion if you look at how she skated when she first joined the group. I believe the 40% doesn't go into Eteri's pocket, it's shared among the other coaches and choreographers, Dudakov and Daniil. And then there are off-ice instructors like the dance teachers, specialists who help with their workouts and conditioning, the actual club/school (tutors for academic classes), the rink, etc. And this goes for all Russian athletes under the state-funded school system. There is no guarantee that students will be successful, but coaches are still working everyday without the 6 figure pay of coaches in the west. Some coaches only have 1 successful skater their entire career, some have none.

There are pros and cons to every arrangement, but this one was known to Alina and I assume she and her family agreed to it. If Alina were born in North America, I doubt she would be able to skate at all. She joined a high level coach when she didn't have any international experience and didn't have her jumps. Most importantly, she wouldn't be able to afford it. Alina has also benefitted from this system when she was essentially skating off others' earnings for most of her career. She's an olympic champion now, but she's the one in a million, and she only had that chance because of the system. Now, she's helping with exposure but that's not payment. Skaters in North America are helping with exposure as well, but the coaches still get their own rates, as they should.

Imagine a skater going to Brian/Raf when they're 12 with no accomplishments. Saying "You're going to give me free coaching and access to all facilities and resources for 10 years. I'm not going to pay you, but there's a chance I could be Olympic champion one day and if I am, I'll give you 40% of my earnings." I'm not sure which situation is better, but the situation in Russia gives everyone a chance to skate, regardless of financial background, while the upper 1% of champions have to share more of their earnings. It comes back to the argument of whether higher taxes for the rich to benefit the whole community is better than everyone for themselves.

The most important thing is that the skaters know the terms and can decide if they agree with them. It's like how some were arguing that Brian's rates were too high. But as a coach, you get to decide how much your services are worth and what kind of arrangement you want to make with a skater. That's the coaches' right, and skaters are free to decide if they think the arrangement is fair.

 

[KatGrace1925]

If I only take home 60.9% of my earnings, my tax rate is effectively 39.1%, regardless of whether it’s my coach, my fed, or some other part of the government that ends up with the money.

My current salary tax rate in the US is 35%, it sucks to have so much of your earnings removed from your pay. I'm struggling to make ends meet and that 35% would do me good but I am sure with the money Alina's making she wouldn't be hurting even paying 40% of her income to others.

 

[ladyjane]

Sigh. Is my beloved dog (who doesn't know anything about coach arrangements) at home to have a cuddle with? He is? I'm fine!

 

[ladyjane]

My current salary tax rate in the US is 35%, it sucks to have so much of your earnings removed from your pay. I'm struggling to make ends meet and that 35% would do me good but I am sure with the money Alina's making she wouldn't be hurting even paying 40% of her income to others.

Haha, I have an ordinary job, which doesn't pay badly though not extremely high. My income taxes are higher than the 35% mentioned, and that's fine with me. The higher my taxes are, the more that gets left for me. We only get high taxes when we earn at a high level. I prefer having high taxes, because it also means my income is high. So, please, increase my taxes!

 

[Mathman]

This would be unusual in North America today. The last coach I remember reading had a contractual percentage of skaters’ earnings was Frank Carroll.

As I recall, the figure that was mentioned in Carroll's case was 7%. Frank has been coy about the topic, but has not shied away from the principle that, "I made you what you are -- time for some (financial) appreciation." The terms were that this clause kicked in only if the skater made the World team, or something like that. It did cover earnings from current and future shows and endorsements.

There was a persistent rumor that this was a factor in the break-up between Frank Carroll and Michelle Kwan in 2001 -- Michelle's father was not happy with the arrangement. I don't know it this is true or not. The only thing Michelle ever said was, "I wanted to take control of my own skating." There was discussion involving Evan Lysacek, too, after he won the Olympics, but no reliable details were ever made public.

 

[Amei]

Eteri has many successful students now but this was only for the last few years. There was a time when none of her students had any earnings and she was still coaching like she is now. There was no guarantee that Alina would be Olympic champion if you look at how she skated when she first joined the group. I believe the 40% doesn't go into Eteri's pocket, it's shared among the other coaches and choreographers, Dudakov and Daniil. And then there are off-ice instructors like the dance teachers, specialists who help with their workouts and conditioning, the actual club/school (tutors for academic classes), the rink, etc. And this goes for all Russian athletes under the state-funded school system. There is no guarantee that students will be successful, but coaches are still working everyday without the 6 figure pay of coaches in the west. Some coaches only have 1 successful skater their entire career, some have none.

There are pros and cons to every arrangement, but this one was known to Alina and I assume she and her family agreed to it. If Alina were born in North America, I doubt she would be able to skate at all. She joined a high level coach when she didn't have any international experience and didn't have her jumps. Most importantly, she wouldn't be able to afford it. Alina has also benefitted from this system when she was essentially skating off others' earnings for most of her career. She's an olympic champion now, but she's the one in a million, and she only had that chance because of the system. Now, she's helping with exposure but that's not payment. Skaters in North America are helping with exposure as well, but the coaches still get their own rates, as they should.

Imagine a skater going to Brian/Raf when they're 12 with no accomplishments. Saying "You're going to give me free coaching and access to all facilities and resources for 10 years. I'm not going to pay you, but there's a chance I could be Olympic champion one day and if I am, I'll give you 40% of my earnings." I'm not sure which situation is better, but the situation in Russia gives everyone a chance to skate, regardless of financial background, while the upper 1% of champions have to share more of their earnings. It comes back to the argument of whether higher taxes for the rich to benefit the whole community is better than everyone for themselves.

The most important thing is that the skaters know the terms and can decide if they agree with them. It's like how some were arguing that Brian's rates were too high. But as a coach, you get to decide how much your services are worth and what kind of arrangement you want to make with a skater. That's the coaches' right, and skaters are free to decide if they think the arrangement is fair.

I don't think that figure skating in Russia is as a 'free ride' as everyone likes to parade around, Tarakanova had said some months ago when she opened a GoFundMe account that her parents had spent over $300,000 USD on her figure skating career so far, and she's only spent 3 years on the Junior circuit.

 

[colormyworld240]

I don't think that figure skating in Russia is as a 'free ride' as everyone likes to parade around, Tarakanova had said some months ago when she opened a GoFundMe account that her parents had spent over $300,000 USD on her figure skating career so far, and she's only spent 3 years on the Junior circuit.

In my previous post, I said it depends on where you are on the national team. I believe lessons, coaching, ice time, and competitions are free. I also said based on Tarakanova's explanation, only a base cost is covered for things like external choreographers, costumes. If you want something more expensive, you have to pay for it. Alina for example didn't get a new dress in her JGP; she borrowed Evgenia's old one. She also said before she made the national team she couldn't afford a hotel room at training camp so she had to rest on the sofa between practices. Radionova has said she could only get in-house choreography until she got her own sponsors, and then she could work with Morozov and Bourne. And AFAIK, RusFed is only giving Evgenia what other skaters of the same rank are getting. All additional costs for Brian and her expenses in Toronto are paid by her and her sponsors.

This makes sense to me. Even 100% of Alina's earnings aren't enough to give every Russian skater Shaelynn Bourne's choreography and Bolshoi made dresses.

 

[Tavi...]

Eteri has many successful students now but this was only for the last few years. There was a time when none of her students had any earnings and she was still coaching like she is now. There was no guarantee that Alina would be Olympic champion if you look at how she skated when she first joined the group. I believe the 40% doesn't go into Eteri's pocket, it's shared among the other coaches and choreographers, Dudakov and Daniil. And then there are off-ice instructors like the dance teachers, specialists who help with their workouts and conditioning, the actual club/school (tutors for academic classes), the rink, etc. And this goes for all Russian athletes under the state-funded school system. There is no guarantee that students will be successful, but coaches are still working everyday without the 6 figure pay of coaches in the west. Some coaches only have 1 successful skater their entire career, some have none.

There are pros and cons to every arrangement, but this one was known to Alina and I assume she and her family agreed to it. If Alina were born in North America, I doubt she would be able to skate at all. She joined a high level coach when she didn't have any international experience and didn't have her jumps. Most importantly, she wouldn't be able to afford it. Alina has also benefitted from this system when she was essentially skating off others' earnings for most of her career. She's an olympic champion now, but she's the one in a million, and she only had that chance because of the system. Now, she's helping with exposure but that's not payment. Skaters in North America are helping with exposure as well, but the coaches still get their own rates, as they should.

Imagine a skater going to Brian/Raf when they're 12 with no accomplishments. Saying "You're going to give me free coaching and access to all facilities and resources for 10 years. I'm not going to pay you, but there's a chance I could be Olympic champion one day and if I am, I'll give you 40% of my earnings." I'm not sure which situation is better, but the situation in Russia gives everyone a chance to skate, regardless of financial background, while the upper 1% of champions have to share more of their earnings. It comes back to the argument of whether higher taxes for the rich to benefit the whole community is better than everyone for themselves.

The most important thing is that the skaters know the terms and can decide if they agree with them. It's like how some were arguing that Brian's rates were too high. But as a coach, you get to decide how much your services are worth and what kind of arrangement you want to make with a skater. That's the coaches' right, and skaters are free to decide if they think the arrangement is fair.

I am 100% sure that most coaches in the west don’t have 6-figure salaries nor do they have any guarantees. Like their counterparts in Russia, they spend years building up their businesses as well as their coaching techniques, and the majority of them never coach elite skaters or rise to the level of Brian, Raf, or Eteri. They are making a living, they may love what they do, but they’re not getting rich. Before Alina started with Eteri in 2015, she had two other coaches. I’m guessing that despite any contributions those two coaches made to Alina’s success, they are probably not sharing in it financially. In fact I’d guess they are probably still slogging away in the provinces and being paid only by the fed for the many lower level kids they coach.

I agree with you that to the extent Alina’s parents agreed to whatever arrangement they have with Eteri - and to the extent they fully understood what they were agreeing, she is obligated by the arrangement, whatever it is. For me it’s a question of what kind of arrangement is fair. I don’t think one or two successful students should be burdened with making up a huge proportion of their coaching team’s income. That’s especially true because we don’t really know where the Russian fed gets funds annually to pay for its skating programs, so we have no evidence that Alina or anyone else was ever skating off others’ earnings.

 

[eaglehelang]

What do you mean by "she"? Do you think Eteri Tutberitze takes her share? She is a coach appointed by the government/federation, and the 30 or 40% are not for her, they are for the club/the federation.

From what I understand, it's 40% either to Eteri or Sambo 70. Russia Fed also takes a percentage, not from the 40%, over and above.

 

[colormyworld240]

I am 100% sure that most coaches in the west don’t have 6-figure salaries nor do they have any guarantees. Like their counterparts in Russia, they spend years building up their businesses as well as their coaching techniques, and the majority of them never coach elite skaters or rise to the level of Brian, Raf, or Eteri. They are making a living, they may love what they do, but they’re not getting rich. Before Alina started with Eteri in 2015, she had two other coaches. I’m guessing that despite any contributions those two coaches made to Alina’s success, they are probably not sharing in it financially. In fact I’d guess they are probably still slogging away in the provinces and being paid only by the fed for the many lower level kids they coach.

I agree with you that to the extent Alina’s parents agreed to whatever arrangement they have with Eteri - and to the extent they fully understood what they were agreeing, she is obligated by the arrangement, whatever it is. For me it’s a question of what kind of arrangement is fair. I don’t think one or two successful students should be burdened with making up a huge proportion of their coaching team’s income. That’s especially true because we don’t really know where the Russian fed gets funds annually to pay for its skating programs, so we have no evidence that Alina or anyone else was ever skating off others’ earnings.

I'm trying to draw the comparison to how it is in North America. Eteri, like Brian and Raf, are coaching olympic level skaters. Brian and Raf are elite coaches who make more than lower level coaches in the same country. The same with Eteri. The previous coaches, while they did contribute, did not bring the results. That is what sets the coaching levels apart and that is indicated by the salaries. A skater doesn't go to Brian and Raf and say "I'm just going to pay you as much as my previous less known coaches and not your asking wage because they contributed to my skating as well and therefore you should make the same amount". The coaches in North America do have a guarantee: they are guaranteed to be paid their asking wage regardless of how a skater does; if the skaters are not happy, the can leave. The coaches under the Russian system are guaranteed to be paid whatever the fed pays them, knowing that they will also get a percentage of successes. The only thing that is not guaranteed is the skaters' success, and that portion of the coaches' income. But this is something the coaches agree to as well. The skaters can leave if they're not happy. Alina is not retired yet, and she has not left the Sambo-70 school; she choses to remain with her coaches, the school, the federation, and therefore the agreement.

As for the bolded part, we don't know what the allocation is. Just like we don't know the percentage breakdown of what a North American skater pays. But we do know that North American skaters pay an hourly wage. Just was we know that all Alina's free trainings and resources came from somewhere; someone paid for it and it wasn't her. 40% of Alina's earnings this year is a lot, but she has only been bringing in earnings since 2016. That's 3 years, but she's been skating for 10. I think if you do the math you'll find that she's not paying more per year than elite NA skaters under big name coaches; like in the west, skaters are free to move to cheaper coaches. She also had the liberty of being able to skate without the financial toll for the first 7 years, and no one knew she was going to be Olympic champion. For all we know, she wouldn't be where she is without that school. This is the system that worked for Alina, and she was always free to use the North American system but she didn't. There is no 100% ideal situation, but this is the one that gave her all her current success, and is the one she chose.