2019-20 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[readernick]

Liza had good height but not distance. Anna had difficult transitions and good distance.

I don't think her distance is impressive. Rika and Kaori Sakamoto are two skaters with average height but excellent distance. As a result of their speed and distance they get a beautiful running edge out of jumps. Anna, not so much. When she lands she is almost at a dead stop. Anyway, to get more than +2 you must have good height and distance. Not just one. It does not matter how good her transitions are without good height and distance she can't get more than +2 according to the rules . Now, will judges follow this rule? Likely not

Anna was impressive and I like her musicality but judges should follow the rules and other than the 2A...I don't think judges ( if they follow the rules) can give get more than. +2 on jumps. But, don't worry judges probably won't follow the rules. She will get higher GOE.

 

[readernick]

I would agree about Ksenia (strongest Russian junior in SS in my opinion). Haein is also strong and some of the Japanese juniors we’ve seen thus far, but in terms of overall impression I would put them below Ksenia and Kamila, but higher than the rest of the juniors we’ve seen from the US and Canada for sure.

Agree to disagree, I think that their jumps aren’t as stable ( other than Haein who has effortless jumps) but the SS and extensions are just as good. Ksenia’s programs are the best, in my opinion. But, I don’t think Kamila ‘s performance or programs are better than Haein’s or Japanese skaters like Rino and Araki. But, she is getting a quad bonus and that is why her PCS scores are higher. It’s not fair but it is the way it has been for a long time.

 

[SkateSkates]

Does Kamila have better skating skills than Anastasia and Alena?

Not quite but she can get there.

Kamila gets good speed but tends to bob up and down on her crossovers a bit instead of staying down in her knees - Aliona is better at this now. I think this is due to her being a bit nervous in competition. She is also a bit jerky in her movements instead of having them flow seamlessly from one position to the next, another thing that currently separates Aliona and Kamila.

Anastasiya is basically unmatched in her ability to generate speed from 1-2 difficult turns, not just crossovers. I don’t think her programs emphasize this strength this year, but if you look at her programs from last year and 2017/18 it is super impressive for someone so young. Unfortunately Kamila’s programs are not built in a way that’s comparable so it’s hard to say how she stacks up in this aspect - most of her speed is generated through crossovers and steps, not turns (ie rockers, etc)

Kamila is only 13 though and can absolutely reach their level if she continues to work on it. Let me reiterate that kamila’s skills are amazing for her age and these are really small nit picky things that she can work on to become the best of the best. I’m not trying to criticize her, but there is no limit to perfection

 

[SkateSkates]

Im probably going to get a lot of hate for this, but I think Ksenia should be getting the highest PCS and especially SS of all Russian juniors. Her blade to ice technique is stellar - look at the way she is able to quickly change direction in her footwork while maintaining deep edges. I’m glad she broke 31/62 PCS here, but I disagree with the gap vs. Kamila.

Kamila doing 2 quads is incredibly impressive and I don’t want to take anything away from this accomplishment, but now the beginning minute of her program is setting up for quads around the rink. And, unfortunately, she is skating around with her head down, clearly focused on the next element ahead. I am totally for technical progress, but if it affects the integrity of the program it needs to be reflected in the transitions, performance, composition and interpretation scores. That said, this was her first time attempting this layout and I hope she proves me wrong next time around and does a better job of integrating the elements into the program.

I think maybe I am harsh on her because she is SO GOOD and we know she has the potential to seamlessly integrate the quads in her program, so I just want to see it

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Rippons are no longer counted toward higher GOE. As the previous poster mentioned, to get +3 or more on a jump you must have very good height and distance. Then they look at other criteria for 4/5. Liza did have good height and. distance, Anna did not.

You can get +3 GOE by achieving any 3 bullet points. To get +4/5 you’ll have to get: very good height and distance, good takeoff, and effortless throughout and then tag more bullets on after that! I think it’s ridiculous to cherry pick and create magic bullets but here we are. Thanks ISU

Since Tano’s and Rippons have the potential to increase a jumps air position I think it’s safe to assume that they can increase GOE. Just like it has always been though it’s at the judges discretion if it increases the value of a jump or not. No one ever got automatic points for arm variations in the past and it’s the same today.

Furthermore several skaters have stated in interviews that arm variations help gain height and to complete rotation. When done well they probably actually help several aspects of GOE for the skaters who have mastered them. I remember everyone bellyaching non stop about Masha’s Tanos but her UR’s dropped noticeably the year she began doing them. There may be some inherent connection here.

 

[colormyworld240]

I don’t want to hear anyone complaining about overscoring and national bias ever again. People won’t say anything because unless they don’t like the skater, the judges are great. It is only when the judges are unfavorable to their favorites that they speak out. I love Kamila as much as the next person, but 65 in PCS is... criminally unjustifiable.

There have been many people complaining that Anna should be getting higher PCS than both the juniors (including Kamila). If Anna is getting 64, there's no way Kamila should be getting 65. Or the other way around - if Kamila is getting 65, Anna should be getting much more. I think we can all agree Kamila has skating skills on par with Tarakanova and Kostornaia, so she should be scoring as they would there. But Anna should be much, much higher in PE/IN.

Plus, isn't that what you're doing yourself? Saying Kamila has unjustified PCS but not explaining comparing to whom, and also not complaining of the PCS of your favourites? For example - the closest equivalent to Kamila in your nation, Alysa?

 

[readernick]

There have been many people complaining that Anna should be getting higher PCS than both the juniors (including Kamila). If Anna is getting 64, there's no way Kamila should be getting 65. Or the other way around - if Kamila is getting 65, Anna should be getting much more. I think we can all agree Kamila has skating skills on par with Tarakanova and Kostornaia, so she should be scoring as they would there. But Anna should be much, much higher in PE/IN.

Junior PCS scores are increasing equal to Senior PCS scores. The junior judges the last few years have gone a bit crazy with scores. Kamila is a better skater than Anna. But, yes, in the LP Anna’s interpretation is better. ( the short , not so much) However, different judges ( And Kamilia had home inflation) different PCS and scoring. You can’t compare PCS between different competitions.

 

[colormyworld240]

Junior PCS scores are increasing equal to Senior PCS scores. The junior judges the last few years have gone a bit crazy with scores. Kamila is a better skater than Anna. But, yes, in the LP Anna’s interpretation is better. ( the short , not so much) However, different judges ( And Kamilia had home inflation) different PCS and scoring. You can’t compare PCS between different competitions.

I was responding to a comment talking about nobody complaining about Kamila's PCS (because she's their favourite).

But if we're talking about Anna's LP, I don't think she and Liza should ever have the same PCS. And you've said you didn't think Anna had any connection to the music in the short - can you explain why? I found that overall her mood fit the atmosphere of the story (not the most important thing for me for IN) but also she was musical and hit the nuances, varying her expression with it. Can you give some examples of where you thought she was off the music?

 

[cell]

I was responding to a comment talking about nobody complaining about Kamila's PCS (because she's their favourite).

But if we're talking about Anna's LP, I don't think she and Liza should ever have the same PCS. And you've said you didn't think Anna had any connection to the music in the short - can you explain why? I found that overall her mood fit the atmosphere of the story (not the most important thing for me for IN) but also she was musical and hit the nuances, varying her expression with it. Can you give some examples of where you thought she was off the music?

The easiest moments to pinpoint where she definitely hit the musical highlights are at 2:07 and 2:13

https://youtu.be/9VlmWPhSd5Q?t=127

Also watch her arms at 0:32-0:36

Don't want to be rude, but I really don't know what people who were saying she had no connection to the music were watching

 

[katymay]

I don’t want to hear anyone complaining about overscoring and national bias ever again. People won’t say anything because unless they don’t like the skater, the judges are great. It is only when the judges are unfavorable to their favorites that they speak out. I love Kamila as much as the next person, but 65 in PCS is... criminally unjustifiable.

I disagree. (respectfully, if you will). The biggest factor is her speed, the same factor that has figured into huge PCS for others-Kostner and Alina for example. This in particular sets her apart from the others. Often she skates so fast into jumps I hold my breath. She FLIES across the ice, from beginning to end. Yes, I know there are four components, but I think the biggest factor in PCS is basic skating speed.

 

[colormyworld240]

The easiest moments to pinpoint where she definitely hit the musical highlights are at 2:07 and 2:13

https://youtu.be/9VlmWPhSd5Q?t=127

Also watch her arms at 0:32-0:36

Don't want to be rude, but I really don't know what people who were saying she had no connection to the music were watching

I think there's a misunderstanding. I thought she had great musicality, I was asking for examples of where she didn't.

 

[cell]

I think there's a misunderstanding. I thought she had great musicality, I was asking for examples of where she didn't.

Oh I know you also thought she was musical.... I was just providing some examples of where I thought it was easiest to spot, even though I know you didn't ask me for those but another poster

 

[Amei]

Liza could have had a better chance to win if her layout was bit smarter. That 2A devalues both the axel and her second most valuable jump. Also, no Sal? She is an excellent jumper, but her team needs to take care of her layout and also better packaging. She is lucky to get similar PCS to Anna with very few transitions and choreography that basically consists of arm movements.

This was Anna's first senior competition, her PCS should increase - unless she has a terrible day and misses a lot of her program her PCS should not be almost identical in score to Liza

Kamila might have the quads but Trusova reigns for her grit and persistence of making quad records. I hope Kamila dont make the Olympics she might steal someone else more deserving that has experience.

I've said it before - the Olympics while it generally is the goal everybody is reaching for - it's not a lifetime achievement award; its basically a second World Championship every 4 years, you have to put down the 2 skates capable of winning that night. And sadly there will be a lot of ladies skaters 'deserving' of being on the Olympic team for Russia that won't make the team but just like this year they have more skaters than they have spots to fill.

 

[Reina del Hielo]

Regarding Ksenia's sp song:

I have always found that song very depressing, but Ksenia skated to it beautifully and I enjoyed her program. It is a tribute to Argentine poet Alfonsina Storni who committed suicide at age 46 by jumping into the Mar del Plata in 1938. :sad21:

 

[karina17]

And BTW there are reasons to prefer Liza's SP over Anna's SP so it wasn't even all that unreasonable.

Like what? The fact that Liza proved that it's so empty that you can swap any music over that program and it'll look the same?

I understand where you're coming from, but I don't understand how a program which is publicly known to have been choreographed to music from a different genre with a different tempo written in a different time is supposed to be seen as artistically superior to the Perfume SP. Even if it's personally not your cup of tea, which I understand because art is quite subjective, at least Anna was actually skating a program with intent. Liza (or at least Mishin) doesn't care about choreography and music and they've made that public knowledge.

Point is, there's only so much you can put down to artistic subjectivity before it becomes blatant biased judging. Anna scoring lower on transitions than Liza says enough, really.

 

[LiamForeman]

Like what? The fact that Liza proved that it's so empty that you can swap any music over that program and it'll look the same?

I understand where you're coming from, but I don't understand how a program which is publicly known to have been choreographed to music from a different genre with a different tempo written in a different time is supposed to be seen as artistically superior to the Perfume SP. Even if it's personally not your cup of tea, which I understand because art is quite subjective, at least Anna was actually skating a program with intent. Liza (or at least Mishin) doesn't care about choreography and music and they've made that public knowledge.

Point is, there's only so much you can put down to artistic subjectivity before it becomes blatant biased judging. Anna scoring lower on transitions than Liza says enough, really.

I agree 100%. Thank you for writing out my thoughts.

 

[readernick]

Im probably going to get a lot of hate for this, but I think Ksenia should be getting the highest PCS and especially SS of all Russian juniors. Her blade to ice technique is stellar - look at the way she is able to quickly change direction in her footwork while maintaining deep edges. I’m glad she broke 31/62 PCS here, but I disagree with the gap vs. Kamila.

Kamila doing 2 quads is incredibly impressive and I don’t want to take anything away from this accomplishment, but now the beginning minute of her program is setting up for quads around the rink. And, unfortunately, she is skating around with her head down, clearly focused on the next element ahead. I am totally for technical progress, but if it affects the integrity of the program it needs to be reflected in the transitions, performance, composition and interpretation scores. That said, this was her first time attempting this layout and I hope she proves me wrong next time around and does a better job of integrating the elements into the program.

I think maybe I am harsh on her because she is SO GOOD and we know she has the potential to seamlessly integrate the quads in her program, so I just want to see it

Agree about Ksenia and PCS.

 

[NadezhdaNadya]

I don't think her distance is impressive. Rika and Kaori Sakamoto are two skaters with average height but excellent distance. As a result of their speed and distance they get a beautiful running edge out of jumps. Anna, not so much. When she lands she is almost at a dead stop. Anyway, to get more than +2 you must have good height and distance. Not just one. It does not matter how good her transitions are without good height and distance she can't get more than +2 according to the rules . Now, will judges follow this rule? Likely not

Anna was impressive and I like her musicality but judges should follow the rules and other than the 2A...I don't think judges ( if they follow the rules) can give get more than. +2 on jumps. But, don't worry judges probably won't follow the rules. She will get higher GOE.

Agree completely!
And here is one skater with both excellent height and distance - Yuna Kim - She is flying!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmZuU71C7eA
Kaori - amazing distance and fluidity:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30D47Ylzs90

And Anna's height and distance...just...:disapp: Not to mention her heavily prerotated jumps (not only the quad but even her triples), wrong lutz edge...

 

[karina17]

Has anyone done the maths? Is Liza's current layout with two 3A's lower than last year with only one?

2019 WTT: 3A, 3Lz3T, 3F, 3S2ASEQ, LSp4, StSq4, 2A3T (missing 2T) x, 3Lz x, 3Lo x, ChSq1, FSSp4, CCoSp4
Total BV (with missing 2T added): 67.14

2019 CS Lombardia: 3A2T, 3A, 3Lz2ASEQ, 3F, FSSp4, LSp4, StSq4, 2A3T2T x, 3Lz x, 3Lo x, ChSq1, CCoSp4
Total BV: 67.62

 

[Jontor]

2019 WTT: 3A, 3Lz3T, 3F, 3S2ASEQ, LSp4, StSq4, 2A3T (missing 2T) x, 3Lz x, 3Lo x, ChSq1, FSSp4, CCoSp4
Total BV (with missing 2T added): 67.14

2019 CS Lombardia: 3A2T, 3A, 3Lz2ASEQ, 3F, FSSp4, LSp4, StSq4, 2A3T2T x, 3Lz x, 3Lo x, ChSq1, CCoSp4
Total BV: 67.62

That was surprising. I thought WTT had higher BV as she scored almost 154 points there. But I guess that score was a tad generous.

So, she has for now thrown out a 3S and a 3T and added a 3A and 2T, which just added half a point in BV.

Compared to Lombardia last year, where she also scored 140 points (but with a lower BV), she had 4 points less in TES, but +4 points in PCS. Hmm, interesting.