2014-2015 GPF Free Dance 12/13

[MK's Winter]

I wouldn't change it. This more Features give a possibility to train many things and let open a possibility to change Twizzles having different Features next seasons. If you train just one sort of things=Features, than you very often loose a capability of doing another things=Features. Arms position is harder, so they are showing more difficulty which should also prove judges that are great in it. Second and third Sets are done from no speed and third Set have three rotations only, so it is not surprising that third Set doesn't have "usual I&Z's ice coverage". Having no connecting steps is much more difficult, it should be awarded by judges also! Let them execute what they have, maybe they will improve it before the season ends.

Sisinka you have such a knowledge of ice dance, it's amazing. Thank you for breaking the dances down and sharing your thoughts. I always learn a ton from you!

 

[sisinka]

sisinka, I'd be interested in your thought's on P/C when they are in hold. I never noticed it before, but it seemed to me that they skate very far apart in the FD step sequence & you could see so much of the ice between them when it was supposed to be in close hold.

Many couples are usually close in Killian hold, the biggest differences are usually seen in Waltz/Tango dance holds.

I think that the best thing is a comparison…

I already made a comparison of all 6 couples from Grand Prix Final, so you can compare who was better = smaller distance the most…

…
P&C with Pechalat & Bourzat and young Annissina & Peizerat and Krylova & Ovsiannikov from 1995 Original Dances.

P&B looked to be a closer to each other in comparison to P&C (also watching whole P&B Step Sequences I have the same idea, that they were closer to each other), but the really smallest distances between dancers were from times when old judging system and Original Dances were strictly about dancing, not about doing elements in “whatever“ hold.

But it is true that those “old“ teams didn’t need to make all those difficult turns is such holds. But those “old times“ dancers had Compulsory dances where they were able to balance close distance with great edges in difficult steps…this is one of things why I really regret not having typical Compulsory dances like it used to be.

Compulsory dances used to be the best comparison of couples in terms of technique and in terms of understandment what is essential for every Ballroom / Latin dance. We can see that this year there are only about 4 couples who are perfectly catching what is Spanish dance about in every second of the dance – W&P, I&Z, P&C and Spanish H&D. And some other couples which keeps Spanish mood also. But most of dancers have some Spanish looking like moves, but they miss what is Spanish dance and mostly Paso Doble about, they miss the spirit of it.

Also having Compulsory dances – it forced the couples to practise close holds also. Or can you imagine that for example Chock & Bates would be doing WHOLE Golden or Viennesse Waltz in such big spacing between each other which is seen on the picture above?

I think that all finalists from Grand Prix Final should improve their spacing. What is the order of the biggest spacing and the smallest spacing – I let the opinion on you. I am sure that the worst spacing have Chock & Bates, but then I would have problems to make an order for next places – P&C looks to be worse than W&P and I&Z and S&S and probably also G&P…

 

[WeakAnkles]

I've finally had the chance to sit down and really watch all of the FD programs. So, some reactions (sorry if this will be lengthy; you have been warned! LOL!)

Ilynkh/Zhaghanshin: What they have managed to accomplish in less than a year together is extraordinary. Talent will out. But I'm afraid I'm not quite ready to drink the Uber KoolAid just yet. I think the biggest problem with them isn't technical--they both have fine technique. But I find them, like S/K, imbalanced, though in a very different way. I'm not the first person on this thread to say it, but I think it bears repeating: Ruslan lacks presence. His babyface is also working against him; it felt like a big sister dancing with her baby brother at a wedding. The first half of this program, she's out there in all her divine Diva Glory, emoting her little fanny off; he's practically the definition of placid. Things picked up in the second half of the program, but even when they were done you could see a distinct difference in their emotional temperaments: she's all exuding a plethora of emotions and fist pumping; he's smiling (placidly). It's not an insurmountable problem--you can teach someone to come out of their shell--but right now it is a major distraction. The choreography's nothing special here, with some awkward moves (the slide before the last section of music, the final choreographic spin which makes the program seem less like it's ending than it's sputtering out of energy). The first lift lacks excitement (and should have scored lower than the Shibs' straight line lift). Potential galore, but I don't think you should confuse potential with actualization. YMMV (and I'm sure for many of you it does).

Gilles/Poirier: Someone here said, they're not as sharp as they should be. I completely disagree with that. American jazz dances from the 20s and early 30s--the Charleston, the Shimmy, the Lindy Hop, the Turkey Trot, the Black Bottom--are not sharp; they're limby and loose and about sensual rhythm and freedom of movement. It's about men and especially women throwing off hundreds and hundreds of years of decorum and rejoicing in that. I worked as a researcher for a film historian specializing in both early musicals and gay/lesbian/queer cinema. I've watched dozens and dozens of early musicals. Here's a clip from one of my favorites, and we're not talking Busby Berkeley here: Cecille B. DeMille's Madame Satan, with The Electricity Dance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJh4RTy-Lkg). As you can see, it's not just Fred and Ginger. A lot of the dancing from this period is just plain Out There. And even with their Fred and Ginger-esque sections, they're lacking the one thing Fred and Ginger had in spades: flow. If I were Carol Lane, I'd sit G/P down and have them watch the movie that made Joan Crawford a star--Our Dancing Daughters, the quintessential flapper movie of the period. It isn't that Piper's facial expressions are OTT; it's more like they're put on. It's like the difference between a fake orgasm and the real deal. And there's nothing like the real deal, baby. On the other hand, they do use some of Sidney Bechet's music, and I loves me Sidney Bechet. And yes, the lifts are terrific--particularly the one with the split. And give Piper her due: she really has improved (even if her bent leg and lack of extension still drives me nuts). It's no Hitchcock, but I think it's a good learning program for them. A good post-year-Olympic program, if you will.

The ShibSibs: Oh dear. I honestly feel like they should get Tshirts that say: WE WENT TO THE GPF AND ALL WE GOT WERE THESE LOUSY TSHIRTS AND SHAFTED BY THE JUDGES. AGAIN. Yes, there are technical problems and they're not getting their levels. But I sometimes really feel the judges hold them to a higher standard. They will NEVER be forgiven for winning that World bronze, will they? The real problem here for me, other than Zoueva needing to fire her boyfriend tech coach and get someone who actually knows what s/he's doing, is that, choreographically and musically, this dance has no real levels. Go back and watch Marlie's DF. It has real highs and lows, distinct changes in mood and tempo. The Shibs' program seems to just meander on (and on), on one level. Their style is eminently suited to waltzing, and they do it beautifully. But the program is a bit of a snoozefest. A nap can be lovely--and this is lovely--but a nap is still a bit of a snooze. Doris, you're absolutely right. D/L, with their penchant for gauzy romanticism, would be a horrible fit for them. Let's send them a letter asking them to please, please, change coaches to Platov. And start listening to music like The Cocteau Twins and Dead Can Dance and Penguin Cafe Orchestra and Phillip Glass. Go wayyyyyyyyyy out of the box and arty. Michael Jackson, pfft. How safe can you get? Shock the hell out of us. I dares them.

Papadakis/Cizeron: I love this program, but boy, this was a verrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry careful and cautious performance, and that sucked all the lightness out of it, making it heavy. It didn't "lift" the way it ordinarily does. You could feel them thinking through each step of it. And this is a program that is all about lightness, about the first burst of love, when everything is joyful and sexy and fun and PLAYFUL. Growing pains as they adjust to being in the upper echelon. They should get used to it--I can see them there for the rest of this quad (provided they get the right material. And I hope they go back to something as adventurous as the Woodkid program).

Chock/Bates: Holy polarizing team, Batman! And that's a shame, because this is the season where you can really see them gel. It helps that Madison has improved her technique (yes, she will never be the world's best technical skater, but let's not be stingy and give credit where credit is due). I love this program. I think it's sophisticated and adult and some of the best choreography Igor has done in AGES. I'm actually quite puzzled by this expectation that a program with music from a film or show should ipso facto mirror that film. Voir did it with Funny Face, and frankly I thought it was BY FAR the weakest program they ever did. If it would help, rename the program "George Gershwin Wrote Some Really Great Music and Here Is One Example." There, that should solve that problem. I also love the costumes: she looks chic and he actually looks like something other than The Nice Boy Next Door for a change. Not their best performance of it, but frankly they deserve more love. They've certainly earned it.

Weaver/Poje: I have finally put my finger on what bugs me about this program. It's the skating equivalent of an Oscar Bair Movie. It thinks it's more important than it is. The choreography is quite good, but the whole thing feels like it is screaming, THROW MEDALS AT ME NOWWWWWWWWWWWWWW. I don't think the style of it suits W/P well (I'd love to see this skated by Illynkh and Cizeron). Did they deserve to win? Yes. I don't think there's any question about that. Is it the best thing they've done or are capable of doing? Not bloody likely. I give Andrew credit--he's starting to learn to use his arms and hands more expressively. And the blue costume is exponentially better than the poop brown (these things do matter in ID!). And they've clearly established themselves as The Ones To Beat In Shanghai. So Mission Accomplished, I guess. I just wished I liked it more.

Well there you go. My two cents. YMMV, of course.

 

[TMC]

Weaver/Poje: I have finally put my finger on what bugs me about this program. It's the skating equivalent of an Oscar Bair Movie. It thinks it's more important than it is. The choreography is quite good, but the whole thing feels like it is screaming, THROW MEDALS AT ME NOWWWWWWWWWWWWWW. I don't think the style of it suits W/P well (I'd love to see this skated by Illynkh and Cizeron). Did they deserve to win? Yes. I don't think there's any question about that. Is it the best thing they've done or are capable of doing? Not bloody likely. I give Andrew credit--he's starting to learn to use his arms and hands more expressively. And the blue costume is exponentially better than the poop brown (these things do matter in ID!). And they've clearly established themselves as The Ones To Beat In Shanghai. So Mission Accomplished, I guess. I just wished I liked it more.

Well there you go. My two cents. YMMV, of course.

Thank you for this - now I know exactly what's been bothering me as well!

I haven't warmed up to this dance at all...W/P are the team I was most looking forward to cheering and I'm very happy they're doing well but I just can't get into this FD.

Last season, especially at Worlds, I felt like in their FD they looked like they weren't dancing for the judges at all, they looked like they were almost defiant! There was no element of "see, see?" that I feel that there is plenty in this one. Maybe I'm just disappointed because their FD last season was soooooo awesome it wasn't likely they were going to top that. Ah well, I felt the same about G/P and much worse, and now I'm starting to like their FD so I hope the same happens with the four seasons!

 

[Sabrina]

The program W/P had skated last year was gorgeous. In the beginning I was not as impressed by the new Four seasons. But as time passes, I really like this new program. The music is so beautiful and they easily express spring and winter in a sophisticate relationship. Of course it is not the same type of passion as in Yo soy Maria..., but still wonderful. Lovely variation!

 

[bramweld]

G&G are just impressive this year. Both their programs are beautifully created to satisfy the requirements of COP while showing them off in their best light.

I/Z have really impressed me though. In my eyes they have the best SS of all the couples in the GPF and this within less than a season of work. Averbuch really underchoreographed their FD. They are capable of much more as is clearly visible from their improved performance of the modified FD at the GPF. I really hope they choose something more sophisticated and complex for their next season. As to concerns about Ruslan's boyishness, I genuinely believe he will mature nicely given what we've seen so far. Give them time.

 

[WeakAnkles]

G&G are just impressive this year. Both their programs are beautifully created to satisfy the requirements of COP while showing them off in their best light.

I/Z have really impressed me though. In my eyes they have the best SS of all the couples in the GPF and this within less than a season of work. Averbuch really underchoreographed their FD. They are capable of much more as is clearly visible from their improved performance of the modified FD at the GPF. I really hope they choose something more sophisticated and complex for their next season. As to concerns about Ruslan's boyishness, I genuinely believe he will mature nicely given what we've seen so far. Give them time.

That's what I was saying. I think they have potential. But potential is potential: it means there is a reasonable chance it will actualize in the future, not that it is here now. Right now she is so dominant that the team is, for me at least, unbalanced. And the choreography's a snooze, even with the sturm und drang of the music.

 

[bramweld]

Deleted.

 

[Snow63]

My wife always tells me when we watch them skating that Ruslan needs more 'butch' haircut. I personally don't see this working for him, but who knows, maybe she's right :think:

 

[uhh]

That's what I was saying. I think they have potential. But potential is potential: it means there is a reasonable chance it will actualize in the future, not that it is here now. Right now she is so dominant that the team is, for me at least, unbalanced. And the choreography's a snooze, even with the sturm und drang of the music.

It's strange, because I do agree with you about the mismatch in the FD, but I find they compliment each other nicely in the SD, and you would expect that to be the dance where she overpowers him so much more because she's playing such a strong role. For whatever reason, the FD just doesn't really suit them as a team or show off anything more than their nice basics. (And I love her new dress but his grey clothes don't help him to shine at all...) But this whole season is about figuring out what works & what doesn't - the FD was made very early on in the partnership & maybe it would have been better to wait until they knew themselves & what they could do a little better, or perhaps something more obviously "dance-y" and less reliant on emoting like the Shibs' waltz would have helped. Off the ice Ruslan seems like a pretty quiet & chilled person, and I don't think the :: comes as easily to him as it does to Elena - he can do it in the SD because it's a clear role, story and style, but the FD is a mashup of all sorts and it seems he's not quite comfortable with whatever emotions they're supposed to be portraying yet. But as you said, the potential is there & it would be foolish to expect it to all be realised at this point.

I still wish they would go with a different coach, or even just go to work with someone like Igor or Platov for a training camp over the summer. It's great that they are both so obviously happy with Kustarova & it's clearly a supportive environment, but I think it would be good for Ruslan in particular to be taken out of his comfort zone and just have someone taking a new approach to iron out the little weaknesses he still has in his posture & presentation sometimes.

 

[Alba]

Averbuch really underchoreographed their FD. They are capable of much more as is clearly visible from their improved performance of the modified FD at the GPF.

Their FD was done a month after they started together. They had no idea how that partnership will work out, or what style or subject would suit them better, let alone Averbuch.
We now know that they are capable of much more, but think back then.

Elena explained about the free (Sorry for the english everybody. It's google translate.)

In short subject was given initially. And here it was necessary to invent something ourselves, none of us really understood what he wanted. Take some active music no longer wanted - enough for Spain in the compulsory dance. For too serious work, we were not ready, because at the time when choosing the music, not yet fully understand how we feel together. In the end, we decided on "Appassionata» Secret Garden, which came to nothing tied, and tried to create a sincere love story between a man and a woman.

 

[LisaM]

I still wish they would go with a different coach, or even just go to work with someone like Igor or Platov for a training camp over the summer. It's great that they are both so obviously happy with Kustarova & it's clearly a supportive environment, but I think it would be good for Ruslan in particular to be taken out of his comfort zone and just have someone taking a new approach to iron out the little weaknesses he still has in his posture & presentation sometimes.

I do quite like this idea!

 

[chameleon]

I agree that I/Z's SD suits them better than their FD, but considering they had to scramble to get both programs done, it's remarkable what they've managed to do with their FD. While it doesn't show them off to the highest level, they have actually made me kind of like it, which I didn't think I would back in CoC.

I actually don't think that Ruslan looks that boyish or recedes into the background- yes, in the FD I watch her than I watch him. But I feel it's rare to have an even split where I watch both people equally in every program, and I watch him enough that to me, he doesn't fade into the background. They aren't there quite yet, but they have the most potential of any new couple I've seen recently, and I'm excited to watch them develop.

 

[elif]

I don't think their free dance suits Elena either. I'm not saying she can only do smiling programs. Obviously she can interpreted sophisticated program like Schindler's List. But I don't think ''big russian drama'' is Elena's style.

They are nervous before program and you can see relief on their faces when they finished. They need time to feel comfortable with each other/elements/program.

 

[sisinka]

Thanks for your opinions, WeakAnkles, really interesting to read…

After seeing Carmen program where both I&Z shows so much fire and passion…. frankly I didn’t expect some notes about him having lack of presence or being placid…

I am also very surprised that such dance expert like you is mentioning lack of presence and being placid…. And then you start to explain it with baby face and placid smiling while Lena’s face is more emotional. It is like you would say that some actor is a great actor because he has great hair cut. Dancing means movements into the music, expressing the music or the story or both by your movements, not by your facial expression. Face is a part of the game, it is not much higher than things like proper costuming and make-up. Not mentioning the fact that while skaters are skating, you really don’t have time to watch such details in face. And if you really spent time watching face on the first place – than it is a failure of the dancer not being able to catch your attention by dancing.

I also don’t catch Lena being divine Diva Glory – she can be real Diva, no doubts, but she is no way portraying Diva in FD, the program shows completely different story and emotions – it is a little bit passionate, very tender, it is about suffering also…and probably about hope for better tomorrow…so if you see Lena – Diva only, than she was not able to express feelings they planned towards you.

Also mentioning Ruslan’s placid smiling and behaving…I remember people criticising the couple for too much fire and presentation over the top in Cup of Russia SD…first picture in the article… http://www.neveitalia.it/sport/figu...ykhzhiganshin-infiammano-il-pubblico-di-mosca
... yes, Ruslan’s placid smile and lack of presence…. but frankly I don’t see any moment in FD where such passionate and fire dancing would be appropriate for Appasionata music or story…

But it happens that people are seing different stories in one program.

I would take it from another point of view…and ask you a question… There are many dance couples where one of partners is really weaker than another one – and it is discussed by many people here. Take our finalists…

S&S – I am not sure who is weaker one (I never thought about it), but here I have an idea that more people say that Maia is not as expressive like she should be…
P&C – most of people here tend to think that Guillaume is stronger dancer and skater than Gabriella…but it now way stops them from appreciating THE COUPLE, not Guillaume only…
W&P – some people admire Andrew like stronger of these two, but you noticed that he starts to learn how to use arm movements (quite basic thing for dancer, no?), so in your eyes he lacked this in past, so probably Kaitlyn was stronger than him in your eyes…for me Andrew is weaker in both technique and presentation yet…
G&P – Piper is visibly weaker technician while Paul is worse like performer – so double imbalance…
C&B – in every dance Madison is much more visible than Evan, most of time he just accompanies her…but you like this team a lot looking at your comments although they are not the same in presence…

You don’t find all these imbalances in other teams distracting?

Or do you think that the differences in skater‘s presence or technique become less distracting after some years of watching them?

Or do you think that the difference between Lena and Ruslan’s presence (especialy in SD) is such a huge gap like a difference between Tatiana Navka and Alex Ovekhkin… while other couples have smaller differences in presentation?

Many people believe that Lena was more expressive than Nikita, so an imbalance situation also…but you will probably say that Nikita was fitting Lena while Ruslan is not.

But stop with theorization…my second question is – give us some examples where in movements Ruslan is less visible / less tender / less passionate / less expressive than Lena is. Take some YouTube link and post certain minute and second in the dance when such situation happens (but please, nothing like: “Here is Lena smiling more WARMLY then Ruslan.“…this is not what describes main dancer’s qualities).

 

[bramweld]

Gird your loins, Sisinka, its coming......

But in all seriousness, dance is a subjective sport. One person's distraction is pure joy to another. What can I say.....

 

[sisinka]

Gird your loins, Sisinka, its coming......

But in all seriousness, dance is a subjective sport. One person's distraction is pure joy to another. What can I say.....

No, seriously…I know something about dancing, but I don’t know many things also…so I take every opportunity to learn something new, what I didn’t notice before…

I share my opinions and I try to explain them and I am reading other people’s opinions with interest to get another way of view which is very often useful and refreshing and allows to get better point of view at the topic. If I don’t agree, I want to hear that person’s arguments to be able to re-think my way of view and decide whether I was wrong or whether we will really have different opinions in this topic.

And for dancers like for every sportsman plays: “What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger.“

 

[bramweld]

No, seriously…I know something about dancing, but I don’t know many things also…so I take every opportunity to learn something new, what I didn’t notice before…

I share my opinions and I try to explain them and I am reading other people’s opinions with interest to get another way of view which is very often useful and refreshing and allows to get better point of view at the topic. If I don’t agree, I want to hear that person’s arguments to be able to re-think my way of view and decide whether I was wrong or whether we will really have different opinions in this topic.

And for dancers like for every sportsman plays: “What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger.“

It comes with the territory.

 

[WeakAnkles]

Gird your loins, Sisinka, its coming......

But in all seriousness, dance is a subjective sport. One person's distraction is pure joy to another. What can I say.....

That's a rude and unnecessary comment.

 

[bramweld]

That's a rude and unnecessary comment.

Noted.