2020 Skate America: Ladies' FS

apgold · Oct 24, 2020

Am I right in saying that Audrey was the only skater with a clean FS? Congrats to her making such a big impression and a bronze medal to boot.

I hope she is able to develop over the next few years without the USFS overhyping her as the NEXT BIG THING. Anyway, US Nationals should be interesting this year with Alysa struggling a bit.

BlissfulSynergy · Oct 24, 2020

MsLayback said:
I'm sorry but Gracie needs to move on...this was pitiful and painful to watch

Right, this is a normal reaction and it was my reaction too. But I'm curious to go deeper rather than just be dismissive. I would think a big part of Gracie's reason for competing is to make money, and because she still pines for the skating life. The question is whether it's the skating life in general or the actual training and competing that she misses.

I thought there had been some opportunities out there for Gracie with different projects, and that people have been trying to help her. Surely, the pandemic has been extra challenging for her without funding and probably without coaching income too. But if you aren't able to train properly, which requires sufficient money, then your competitive results will not be good, no matter how much talent you possess (e.g., Rohene Ward was tremendously talented, but he lacked the money to truly get the top level training he needed to excel competitively the way his talent dictated. That's why I'm so happy for him that he was able to craft a successful career in show skating and especially as a choreographer).

sailormoon · Oct 24, 2020

BlissfulSynergy said:
Still, it seems to me that her poor showing is a matter of lack of necessary training preparation. If she has the motivation, then why doesn't she make sure she's properly prepared, or don't compete. Is it about needing money for training? And she competes in order to try and earn some money? But meanwhile, she doesn't have the best coach, training help and venue to really do what she needs to do?

I'm asking because it's so sad to see her going out there and just not having what she needs to do her best. This is not her best and if she's still motivated to skate, surely she can get back to a better level. But it takes the right training and fitness.

Gracie is getting back in shape and she made a couple of triple jumps, starting from clean 3Lz-2T, while she had two falls in the second half of her free skate because she does not have the stamina to pull through. She is far from her best technically but she has been participating in competitions as a therapeutic process after she was clinically depressed for some years. In her heyday, she was where Bell is in this season, competing with Ashley Wagner, whose place is now taken by Tennell. Regardless of her technical scores, this is supposed to be a great comeback story.

Thrashergurl · Oct 24, 2020

It’s a mental thing with Gracie. Hopefully she can overcome it

BlissfulSynergy · Oct 24, 2020

sailormoon said:
Gracie is getting back in shape and she made a couple of triple jumps, starting from clean 3Lz-2T, while she had two falls in the second half of her free skate because she does not have the stamina to pull through. She is far from her best technically but she has been participating in competitions as a therapeutic process after she was clinically depressed for some years. In her heyday, she was where Bell is in this season, competing with Ashley Wagner, whose place is now taken by Tennell. Regardless of her technical scores, this is supposed to be a great comeback story.

Well, it was a great effort by Gracie to make it back to U.S. Nationals in January, where she performed fairly well considering her situation. There's no doubt that when you are down in the dumps, you aren't going to get the same attention and backing. With the way Gracie was so revered and thirsted after by sponsors at one time in her career, this is fairly heartbreaking. At a time, when she could actually use a bit more backing to help her reach her goals, obviously there are no sponsors to be found, if I'm not mistaken. Sure, the media likes writing about Gracie as a cautionary tale, or a so-called 'brave comeback,' but the actual harsh day-to-day lived reality for her is probably very different.

If it's therapeutic for Gracie to skate, then hopefully she could get some deals through her old friends at some point in the future for shows if she proves she can hold up her end. But right now, how is it therapeutic to go out there and not be able to perform? Wouldn't it trigger more depression from bringing back her worst moments in her old competition days when she disappointed herself? I guess as you say, her poor showing here was a lack of stamina to complete most of her jumps after managing a few in the early part of the program (albeit bailing on completing full revolutions on a number of jumps).

Once again, pushing forward to qualify to compete must earn Gracie a bit of money, which might be lacking (as it is for many athletes and regular people) during these difficult times. Another question I have is why is the skating therapeutic for Gracie? Is she still searching after something elusive that escaped her during the bad times when she felt so much pressure as the next big thing? I wish for Gracie it had worked out better. But I need to let go of that thinking. Maybe she's resolved all that from the past and let it go herself. I know I still remember Gracie's best, shining moments fondly and wistfully. And I wish that I as a fan had not contributed so much to the pressure she felt by all my voiced expectations, criticisms and pushing the cool coincidence of her last name, etc. None of which she needed to hear at that time. She needed to hear encouragement for just being herself, and being told that who she is, is more than enough. She didn't have to live up to the expectations of strangers and of U.S. fed.

From what Gracie has said in recent interviews, maybe she has resolved much of her angst from the past. But I doubt many of her fans have. I hate seeing that lost look on her face. You did your best, Gracie. If it's about the lack of training time and lack of money, and she couldn't be expected to perform better here, then I hope she's at peace with understanding her current limitations, and that she can shake off any feeling of embarrassment. Who are we to judge her? I ask this, even though it may seem that I'm judging. I'm just asking questions because I care. If Gracie truly wants to keep skating for the right reasons, I hope that she's able to become better fit and to set realistic goals. And that the process she's working through will make her happy, not sad.

BlissfulSynergy · Oct 24, 2020

Thrashergurl said:
It’s a mental thing with Gracie. Hopefully she can overcome it

Yes, it always seemed to be a mental block that kept her from excelling when she clearly had the talent, and she'd clearly trained well. That's what I mean about bad moments being re-triggered when she goes out there now and tries to perform when she's not physically at her best in terms of training preparation. It's not the end of the world, but it's got to feel deflating. And many of us look at it and question why she's out there. That's why I wanted to go deeper and try to acknowledge that there's more going on that has made it difficult for Gracie to be prepared. And to recognize that she still probably pushes herself to compete in order to make some money, and to stay in the thick of things, without falling too far behind and having to make yet another comeback.

Regarding the scoring at SA, so far as I'm looking at the early skaters, wow what a load of inconsistent scoring. Shan Lin had so many carrots that don't appear to have been called. At least they weren't called in real time. It wasn't until the combo where she fell that they finally called URs, and then the jump immediately after that was called UR correctly. But even the second jump on her first jump combo was a UR that WAS NOT called in real time. Shan had so many questionable jump landings though. To my eyes, it seemed as if the judges were intent on doing her favors. Even had they called Shan's faults fairly, she would still likely have landed a point or two above Starr, though I think Starr is a more mature and accomplished skater (even with the technical flaws Starr needs to work on). It just looked to me like Shan has a huge tendency to carrot, and that a number of her URs and close calls were blithely ignored.

Sierra Venetta is a nice skater with a few very technically sound jumps beautifully executed. Sierra's presentation skills are okay, but her skating is so slow that she looks like she's laboring over the ice. In contrast, Starr was much faster and smoother over the ice. But it was obvious that Starr was winded after her performance, so seemingly her fitness isn't yet at peak level. It just strikes me that some of the judges were more trying to gift Sierra and Shan, yet they weren't trying to give Starr anything but the bare minimum. Sierra made too many mistakes, and the judges were unable to manage giving her enough points to overtake Starr in the fp. Obviously Starr lost a lot of points in the sp by popping a jump, and seemingly the UR calls on Starr in the fp are correct, but Starr is still overall a better skater than Sierra and Shan, and certainly better than Hawk, who Starr was also behind I believe in the sp. I thought Starr was overly dumped on in the sp. Even when she skates her best, the judges tend to manage Starr's scores around 64 to 65 or so.

Watching all these ladies points out again to me just how tough figure skating is, and how terrible the judging is. I know many judges try hard to be fair, but they aren't working with an easy system. Politics and preference abounds, as usual. It is a sport that demands so much and gives back in a limited way, although there are many hard-won rewards some can achieve. Figure skating exacts such a toll on bodies, hearts, and minds, not to mention pocket books.

BlissfulSynergy · Oct 25, 2020

Ah well, based on the performances of the top two ladies, Bradie should have won this event IMO. Mariah was scored a bit high in the sp. The gap should not have been more than a point or less between these ladies in the sp. The fp performances speak for themselves. How is Mariah in 4th for the fp but overall the winner, when Bradie performed so great? I suppose the one mistake Bradie made in the fp (which was not as huge as Mariah's mistake) fans will say made the difference. In truth, it was the judges favoring Mariah in the sp that made the difference.

Bradie was definitely robbed. While I really like the skating of both Mariah and Bradie (and they are both fine young ladies), I really hate the way U.S. fed goes all in for certain skaters, and then seems to ditch them suddenly and go for their new fave like a bear for a picnic basket. It's exhausting to witness.

MaHa75 · Oct 25, 2020

BlissfulSynergy said:
Ah well, based on the performances of the top two ladies, Bradie should have won this event IMO. Mariah was scored a bit high in the sp. The gap should not have been more than a point or less between these ladies in the sp. The fp performances speak for themselves. How is Mariah in 4th for the fp but overall the winner, when Bradie performed so great? I suppose the one mistake Bradie made in the fp (which was not as huge as Mariah's mistake) fans will say made the difference. In truth, it was the judges favoring Mariah in the sp that made the difference.

Bradie was definitely robbed. While I really like the skating of both Mariah and Bradie (and they are both fine young ladies), I really hate the way U.S. fed goes all in for certain skaters, and then seems to ditch them suddenly and go for their new fave like a bear for a picnic basket. It's exhausting to witness.

MaHa75 · Oct 25, 2020

BlissfulSynergy said:
Ah well, based on the performances of the top two ladies, Bradie should have won this event IMO. Mariah was scored a bit high in the sp. The gap should not have been more than a point or less between these ladies in the sp. The fp performances speak for themselves. How is Mariah in 4th for the fp but overall the winner, when Bradie performed so great? I suppose the one mistake Bradie made in the fp (which was not as huge as Mariah's mistake) fans will say made the difference. In truth, it was the judges favoring Mariah in the sp that made the difference.

Bradie was definitely robbed. While I really like the skating of both Mariah and Bradie (and they are both fine young ladies), I really hate the way U.S. fed goes all in for certain skaters, and then seems to ditch them suddenly and go for their new fave like a bear for a picnic basket. It's exhausting to witness.

I as european who does not have favourite skater in US want to say about scoring that judges are also humans...and Mariah overall looking much better than Bradie. Mariah is beautiful body, face, legs and stamina! And this helps her even she had some technical errors...this is the way it always has been! Amen!

rollerblade · Oct 25, 2020

MaHa75 said:
Mariah is beautiful body, face, legs and stamina!

Totally forgot about the US domestic competition "bonus points" for having beautiful bodies, faces, and legs!

Astolat · Oct 25, 2020

MaHa75 said:
and Mariah overall looking much better than Bradie. Mariah is beautiful body, face, legs and stamina!

This is figure skating, not a beauty pageant.

norwegianfairytale · Oct 25, 2020

Apparently Gracie said in the mixed zone that she was terrified to skate this weekend, and that she had both booth issue and leg injury.
She is not giving up. https://twitter.com/NickMcCarvel/status/1320070038498480134

Gracie had pretty decent skates last season at Sectionals, Regionals and Nationals, and we shouldn´t judge here so much for the results in one GP with bad preparations and under a pandemic. There will be better days.

I want to focus on the positive side: She wasn´t giving up. I´m happy she went trough. To be honest after the SP I was a bit worried she would WD like she did in Cup of Russia, but she didn´t. She put herself out there. It was a rough skate, but I envy here for going for the the jumps in the end of the program, and instead of taking the easy way and pop them, she tried the 3Lz and 2A and she fought them all though she fall. I´m also happy she had brand new programs, and in the K&C I think she worked very hard to not show how disappointed she was, she wanted to cry, but she didn´t.

Jaana · Oct 25, 2020

- Congratulations to Tennell for the win of the freeskate!!! I love her programme and she interpreted the music really wonderfully

- Bell: Well, she was skating and the music was playing, but I did not see much connection...

- Shin: Loved her performance!!!

TontoK · Oct 25, 2020

I'm puzzled by the strong feelings about the results of the ladies event.

Really, I didn't see anything that would make me suspect some sort of USFSA push or conspiracy to benefit or hurt either Bradie or Mariah. The judges didn't have this thing rigged. Neither of the top skaters had a great performance, and someone had to win. So one of them did. It wasn't convincing either way, and the score differential showed that.

Two bright spots for me: Mariah's short program, which I thought was beautiful. My first real introduction to Audrey Shin, who is someone I will look for in future events - I'm interested in how she will develop.

But, honestly, is anyone going to be wearing out the Youtube links for any ladies program in this event?

MaHa75 · Oct 25, 2020

rollerblade said:
Totally forgot about the US domestic competition "bonus points" for having beautiful bodies, faces, and legs!

I didnt say this is ok...this is fact and problem which always have been!

CoyoteChris · Oct 25, 2020

TontoK said:
I'm puzzled by the strong feelings about the results of the ladies event.

Really, I didn't see anything that would make me suspect some sort of USFSA push or conspiracy to benefit or hurt either Bradie or Mariah. The judges didn't have this thing rigged. Neither of the top skaters had a great performance, and someone had to win. So one of them did. It wasn't convincing either way, and the score differential showed that.

Two bright spots for me: Mariah's short program, which I thought was beautiful. My first real introduction to Audrey Shin, who is someone I will look for in future events - I'm interested in how she will develop.

But, honestly, is anyone going to be wearing out the Youtube links for any ladies program in this event?

The really important thing about this comp is that it happened. I think it was done about as safe as it could have been. And I enjoyed seeing skating live on TV again. I hope the venue gets more comps cause its one of the best in the US that I have seen. Of course, it doesnt hurt that my grandkids did well.....

BlissfulSynergy · Oct 25, 2020

MaHa75 said:
I as european who does not have favourite skater in US want to say about scoring that judges are also humans...and Mariah overall looking much better than Bradie. Mariah is beautiful body, face, legs and stamina! And this helps her even she had some technical errors...this is the way it always has been! Amen!

What? I'm sorry, but what you just said comes close to suggesting Mariah is being judged based on her looks, which somehow trumps Bradie's looks???!!! Nope, both ladies have strengths and weaknesses in terms of their skating talent and body builds. Forget about looks which is only skin deep and quite meaningless. It's who you are inside, your character, and as an athlete, your talent, work ethic, self-belief, luck and determination that matter and in the end make the difference in achieving career goals. Yep, in this sport the politics of the judging also factors in.

IMO, Bradie could have given up and faded at the first experience of setbacks, but she's kept working hard. She came back so strong from a difficult back injury, and she keeps coming back every season making improvements. She's got a lot of class and she's just as sweet, tough, and determined as Mariah.

Mariah has talked about being lucky in her background, so both ladies have kind of had opposite challenges in that respect, as Mariah comes from a well-to-do family and Bradie doesn't. So Mariah realized she had to decide to grow up and take charge of what she really wanted instead of drifting or settling for trying to live up to others' expectations. Bradie had to find ways to make it in the sport financially with the help and support of her mother and other close family members. As I said, Bradie could have faded after her back injury, or after some of the scoring setbacks at big events, or after the unfair putdowns, or even in the face of OTT praise which is going to be Mariah's challenge soon at this rate.

Both ladies deserve fans' admiration and respect, and they also deserve to be judged fairly. But the judging in this sport is what it is. The skaters realize they have to take it on the chin sometimes and bear down and keep their eyes on the prize. I hope Mariah and Bradie continue to push each other to even greater heights. That's the main important takeaway. At the same time, I hope U.S. figure skating (made up of individual people of course) will think twice about overdoing the constant 'next-big-thing' favoritism push, and be equally fair to all of their very talented athletes.

Rere · Oct 25, 2020

I enjoyed watching the event greatly, all with the cardboard audience, which was sweet - I am wondering, if it were the participant skaters who brought the pictures of people and pets they would like to face when skating

It was lovely to see some new faces, and - man, looks like I turned into a real Brady Tennell fan, she was so charismatic and beautifully athletic in both her programs; choreo and her pure energy were exciting to watch, and my breath was absolutely taken away by her final FS spin, WOW! :pray:

So yeah, I'm having mixed feelings about the results - was it the nepotism or the beauty pageant (as a fellow user said above) reasons, or both? Of course, here I need to add a caveat that I am not even remotely a specialist in scoring the programs, so))

Still, so glad the competition happened (and was available for watching), and apparently in as a safe way as it possible!

BlissfulSynergy · Oct 25, 2020

TontoK said:
But, honestly, is anyone going to be wearing out the Youtube links for any ladies program in this event?

LOL, I never wear out any YouTube links for ladies these days. It's my least favorite event and has been for awhile. I like keeping abreast of all the events, of course, but ladies brings up the rear for me.

Ladies used to be huge for me back in the old days when Kween was competing and making her mark in such a transcendent and influential way. I do have many fave ladies skaters over the years (including Kween, Kristi, Chen Lu, Debi, Jill Trenary, Caryn Kadavy, Nicole Bobek, Midori Ito, Mirai, Mao Asada, Yuka Sato, Surya, Sasha, Yu Na Kim, Ashley, Gracie, the legends Dorothy and Peggy, et al., and I enjoyed Kaetlyn Osmond's comeback, and Carolina Kostner's renaissance in her later years; currently I love Wakaba Higuchi's power and precision). But I can't with the glorification of Russian teenyboppers, and the OTT push in the U.S. as well that went awry when Mirai and Caroline Zhang were talented juniors heading to seniors. Of the Russians, my favorite Elena Radionova never really made it, despite all the hype and her love for skating. I've come to respect Liza Tuktamysheva for her strong character and longevity backed by hard work. Oksana Baiul had some beautiful moments in programs, but Baiul's technical skills were never fully developed. Maria Butryskaya had the most amazing season in 1999. I respect how Maria willed herself to great heights with questionable technical talent and stiff knees. I was never a fan of Irina Slutskaya, but she made strides and improvements. She had great athleticism.

That said, I like watching what happens with our U.S. ladies. When they are on, Starr, Amber, Karen, Ting Cui, Bradie and Mariah are fun to watch. I loved witnessing Ashley Wagner's self-willed comeback after she failed to make the 2010 Olympic team. The Gracie and Ashley years were nail-biting, sometimes joyful and too often distressing. I stayed fairly detached for the most part because I admired them both. It will be interesting to see what happens with Alysa Liu, but I'm not invested that much in the over-hype of teenyboppers with multiple rotations. Audrey Shin is talented, but wake me up when she grows up a bit more and further develops style and personality, if she makes it that far in this sport.

My favorite disciplines are pairs, ice dance, and men. Ladies I can generally take or leave. It's not the first event I will watch. I was more interested in watching Skate America pairs, ice dance and men in real time. I caught up with ladies after the fact.

Michelle Kwan programs are fun to re-watch to this day. I have re-watched Mariah's 2020 U.S. Nationals skate a few times. I was so happy for her exciting breakthrough. And I have repeat watched some of Bradie's best performances in recent seasons. I think Bradie had a strong showing at Skate America in both programs. I'm just not liking Mariah's programs quite as much this season. I like keeping abreast of ladies, but I'm less interested in that discipline because I don't find it very innovative or exciting in the way that pairs, ice dance and men are innovative and exciting these days.

BlissfulSynergy · Oct 25, 2020

BTW,

A U.S. ladies sp I could re-watch over and over to this day is Courtney Hicks' 2014-2015 sp to Code Name Vivaldi (her theme was the rise of a Phoenix, and boy was that a breakthrough performance for her at U.S. Nationals). The U.S. Nats video on YouTube has a glitch in it, but here's a version from Skate Canada (though she made a mistake on a jumping pass where as at Nationals, she was clean and on fire!)

Skate Canada 2014. SP. Courtney HICKS

www.youtube.com

Also, Wakaba Higuchi's 2018 Worlds fp (to a James Bond medley, including Skyfall) is dynamite. Though the constant wide-shot cutaways in this version are completely annoying. Why can't they learn to keep the camera on a full close body shot of the skater? Wide angles, overheads and close-ups that cut the lower body off while they're skating shows that networks DO NOT know how to cover figure skating: